there are people who believe improving their situation and therefore the situation of those immediately around them, will help the situation of everyone to some extent through a kind of ripple effect. which ties into well known spiritual principles of: change yourself, change the world, type stuff. which used to be understood as high spiritual knowledge.
then there are people who believe that their shitty circumstances are (read: always) someone else’s fault and that the “better life” is forever somewhere “out there” or “in the future” and they’re working “toward” that, despite the evidence around them that their own actual choices, right now, are creating *shittier than necessary* circumstances. circumstances can genuinely be shit: but that can also be more shitty or less shitty based on what a person does with them.
the thing is: shitty circumstances *do not imply you’re a bad person* but they can either be seen as feedback for what you are in this moment *or* evidence of oppression. and the lens you choose will act like a feedback loop, reinforcing that perspective.
thing is: improving what is immediately around you, will have the feedback-loop-effect, of, continuing to do that. and because you’re a human being with relationships and family and needs, and aspirations - you will automatically begin to improve the lives of those around you.
*assuming* that your situation *is* caused by systems of oppression or individuals outside of yourself (to the extent that it over rides the personal-responsibility approach) will *also* feedback onto itself. that very attitude will engender more evidence of such oppression (real or imagined,) if for no other reason than: that you are a drag to be around and therefore your social network is unstable or stable in the wrong way.
or something like that. just a thought
cole
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It seems like you do. Your original statement was that white people dominated cinema for 60 years or whatever it was, as if that was oppression. I pointed out that they also INVENTED the medium. So of course they made stories reflecting themselves. This whole discussion is *not* about excluding non-whites from cinema (obviously.) The main grievance here is the ham-fisted quotas and race swapping in, especially, European stories (whether historical or historio-mythical.) Greeks still exist and are, as far as I know, pretty much not represented at all in this Greek story.
naturally, the group that invents a medium is going to... do... that medium for some time as everyone else slowly gets into this newly created medium. and their stories will reflect themsleves, largely. and no one said anything non-whites not being allowed in cinema. it's the pushing of quotas and the social engineering that is annoying to people.
@grok please explain my point to this person in a way they will understand and remind them their reply to my prior reply is a nonsequiter
I think you may have misunderstood the point I was making. I'm not arguing that real ancient Greeks went around speaking like Victorians. Quite the opposite. My question is whether Homer himself uses an elevated register in these scenes. Saying the Odyssey contains ἄττα or πάππα somewhere doesn't really address why Nolan chose "dad" for passages where Homer uses πατήρ. Isn't that effectively modernizing Homer's register rather than recovering it? In other words, aren't you appealing to how Greeks may have spoken generally rather than to the language Homer actually chose?
@grok question, in the odyssey, in the original greek - the word they use for "father" when, say, referring to Odysseus in terms of his son. does greek have formal and less formal versions of "father" such as, say, father/dad in english? if so, which was used in the odyssey?
see Chris Nolan's recent comment when asked about the use of "dad" in his recent adaptation. he mentioned we tend to view the ancient world in "weird ways." to me this implies that the lofty language often used in historo-mythical adaptations is due to our adding loftiness that wasn't in the source material. but in this case... i'd say that isn't accurate.. no?
I agree completely that antisemitism is wrong, and I don't think there's any serious argument that Jewish civilization hasn't had an enormous influence on the development of the West. The Ten Commandments, the Hebrew Bible, and the Jewish roots of Christianity are historical realities. Christ Himself was a Jew.
That said, I think your frequent and long-standing emphasis on the West as fundamentally a "Judeo-Christian" civilization misses a huge part of the story.
The West wasn't built by one people. To simplify it as little as possible: Athens gave us philosophy, logic, political theory, mathematics, and the foundations of scientific inquiry. Rome gave us law, republican institutions, engineering, administration, and citizenship. Christianity emerged from Judaism, but it also absorbed and transformed Greek philosophy and Roman institutions into something new.
And perhaps most importantly, none of this landed on an empty continent. The peoples the Romans called the Germans, along with the Norse, the Gauls, the Britons, and countless other indigenous European peoples weren't just passive recipients of Mediterranean civilization. They brought their own traditions of law, governance, kinship, assemblies, exploration, language, folklore, and social organization. Medieval Europe was the product of those worlds meeting, not one replacing the other.
So yes, Jewish civilization is unquestionably one of the foundations of the West. But so are Greece, Rome, and the indigenous cultures of Europe. I think your framing consistently understates those contributions. To me, the West is better understood as a long synthesis of all of these traditions rather than primarily through a Judeo-Christian lens.