average talmud enjoyer

כל שנעשה רחמן על אכזרים, לסוף נעשה אכזר על הרחמנים

-רבי אל��זר, מדרש תנחומא לפרשת מצורע

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

This is hugely revisionist historically illiterate cope. The founding fathers were extremely philosemitic, as were the pre-revolution colonies, to the point where they self-inserted as Jews in their sermons, were advocating for a Jewish return to Israel long before Zionism existed as a political movement among Jews, and saw ancient Israel as an inspirational model for republican governance. George Washington didn't even see Jews as outsiders to be tolerated, and (((Haym Salomon))), who was personally called by Washington himself, funded the American revolution, and was essential to the success at Yorktown.

They had an obsession with the Old Testament, America as the new Zion, etc. and you can see this in their early religious writings, national symbols, and even the way they named cities all over America. Again, all of this was before any of the earliest Jewish Zionists were even born.

Say whatever you want about Evangelical Protestantism and Dispensationalism, but they were organically very culturally dominant in America and provided fertile soil for extremely pro-Zionist sentiments without any need for Jewish subversion. How was a 100% gentile Christian theological movement long before Zionism an op for Zionism? That doesn't make any sense. Did John Nelson Darby have a time machine? Was he a prophet?

For centuries, proto-Zionism and philosemitism were a more meaningful part of the identity of pre-revolution and post-revolution America than Catholicism was, and it's not even close or debatable. Being pro-Israel is no more an op than anything else foundational about the US.

You can choose to hate Jews or America and its predominant religious genealogy, but don't pretend that you are rooted in its oldest traditions. If you are anti-Israel as an American, then from a broad historical perspective, you are an innovative reformer at best, and a subversive cultural revolutionary interloper at worst. You can say that the founding fathers or the peoples of early America were wrong or misguided if you want, or that the political circumstances changed and so should one's views, but while you are entitled to your political view, you are not entitled to lie about or misrepresent well-documented history.

P.S. Also ironic to bring "the founding ethos" into this as wary of foreign interventions, when the first post-independence overseas military action of the US was President Jefferson going to war with the Barbary pirates over naval trade routes. The founders had no problem with foreign interventions even far from the shores of North America in the name of securing American interests.

[C.Jay Engel 🌲 @contramordor]

Being "pro-Israel" is an op. Americans were never "pro-Israel" until around the 70s or 80s. Without the legacy media, dispensational theology (also an op), and an intense political lobbying campaign, most Americans wouldn't even think about the modern state of Israel.

Part of returning to the ethos of our founding means refusing to get caught up in the emotions of random far away foreign countries.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

I listened to the stream and I really appreciated your pushback on this issue. It's frustrating listening to ignorant westerners demonize any kind of identity preservation, when most states have laws like these on the books or operate de facto this way but no one cares because it's not Israel. The point you made about other countries like Greece having right of return is an extremely important one and I've heard very few people except Israelis make it.

When Soypill made the comparison between Israelis and Russians after you raised the point of kicking out settlers on conquered territories, you rightly pointed it out that it was the Jews who were first kicked out and sought to return. I was honestly extremely impressed that you were able to respond this way.

I also immensely appreciate that you try not to speak too much about conflicts that you don't understand firsthand. This is also a principle I have tried to live by for many years, and the world would be a better place if everyone was like this.

I disagree with certain things you said (which I will not elaborate on here), and I think some of your analysis of the history of Israel/Palestine requires more nuance, but overall, thank you very much.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

@sobergoy Gambling is condemned by the Talmud (Sanhedrin 24b) and disqualifies one from being a valid witness in court, either because the winnings are considered theft, or because it contributes nothing to society as a "profession". So how is it a "Jewish psy-op"?

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

@horsegirl3005 I'm a Jew, I live in Israel, and I am not sure I agree with this one.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

@jawboneofsamson No one disagrees that he was endorsed by Rabbi Akiva at one point but they were willing to change their mind with new information (his death and therefore vindication of his spiritual shortcomings that rendered him unfit to be mashiach according to the gemara).

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

@jawboneofsamson ok but how do you explain the gemara talking about his spiritual shortcomings?

[Patrick Casey @restoreorderusa]

“In order to defeat the Jews, we’re going to have to unite with the left.”

“And who controls the left?”

“The Jews.”

“…”

[Negro Vision @GodClosePopeyes]

“And by the way, I don't give a good damn about the so-called ‘browning of America.’ Color doesn't matter. Ideology does”

-Nick Fuentes

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

Shouldn't have done October 7th then. And if you are going to say October 7th was just a response to occupation, then occupation was just a response to Arab violence against Jews going all the way back to times that long preceded the nakba. Maybe Arabs shouldn't have tried to do that either. But they did, so they kept making their situation worse and worse. And they deserve it.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

I didn't say anything about land being promised 3000 years ago. You love putting words in other people's mouths so you don't have to engage with what they actually say but rather with your own straw man instead. Muslim caliphates conquered a land that had hundreds of thousands of Jews on it and they displaced them over the next few hundred years turning them into a tiny minority, and continued to be violent against them while giving them no rights. No Muslim has ever condemned or apologized for any of this. Then when those Jews ended up in other lands but maintained the continuity of their peoplehood in other lands, all of a sudden they are not Jews anymore, and the Muslims get to pretend like they are foreigners, whose return is land theft, even though they purchased the land legally? They were willing to coexist with the local Arabs just fine. The nakba, the bombing of hospitals and schools (which are used for military purposes and therefore legitimate military targets), the raids on the west bank, are all responses to Palestinian Arab violence from the 20s and onwards to today. The Palestinians had every opportunity to coexist with Jews, and even the Zionist Jews, but they chose violence at every turn even when they had offramps. They are reaping what they sow. Although the Palestinians have no actual connection to Canaanites (there have been 0 attempts to claim continuity with this group until the Israel Palestine conflict, and there are 0 cultural markers in language, religion, etc that remain), and what is called "Canaanite DNA" is found in Arabs all over the region, it is irrelevant whether the Palestinians descend from Canaanites, because if they do violence against other groups, there are still going to be consequences to that.

Anyway, you are not worth engaging with. Goodbye.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

I didn't bring geopolitical conflicts or shame into this discussion. I was engaging respectfully and politely, even after you said that. YOU are the one who brought up Palestine out of nowhere and told me to stop killing kids, and then you didn't seem to like it very much when I applied your alleged moral standards and shaming to you in turn. What did you think, that a Jew would randomly start begging for forgiveness and groveling before you because you mentioned dead Palestinian children? I owe you nothing. The world owes you nothing. You are not special, and Palestinians are not innocent angels who deserve unlimited sympathy for their endless violent instigation both before and after any Jewish violence against them, and the blood of their own children is on their hands. We are not going to play this game. This conversation was actually a great microcosm of the Israel Palestine conflict, because the Muslim instigated, the Jew responded in turn, and then the Muslim got very upset about that.

Also, a Muslim is going to talk to me about the integrity of land ownership after conquering an entire region and raping, killing, subjugating, and forcibly converting many of the conquered populations? It's so funny you can't even make it up. You are the ones who stole land from everyone else including the Land of Israel where Jews built a whole civilization for 2000 years before Islam conquered it from the Romans.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

Samaritans claim the exact same mass revelation and national history as the Jews up until long after the Sinai story. The only thing they disagree about is in the details of what happened after and who descends from who. To use the same exact mass revelation as a counterexample for Kuzari is the most hilarious attempt at a rebuttal I have seen yet.

Anyway, can you explain why you are claiming Hashem is a liar? In Devarim perek 4, Hashem uses the Kuzari argument Himself (in fact that is where the Kuzari gets it from originally) as a verification of how we will know our religion is true and commands us to know that He is Hashem on this basis that we have been shown this mass revelation, chain of transmission, and the lack of counterexamples. If you don't think Kuzari is a sound argument, you must reject the truth of the Torah itself.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

>"So according to Judaism they are doing shirk?"

Yes I stated that quite plainly, I just said, prostrating in front of representations of the divine does not on its own prove that.

>"And I didn’t ask your opinion on tawhid because your opinion holds no value in the religion of Islam we don’t go by your commandments but we can dive into that."

You are the one who started talking about what the rabbis think.

>"The Quran itself is not necessarily eternal but the words of Allah who is not bound by time or space is eternal which makes sense."

Uncreated, but "not eternal". Still polytheistic according to the Jewish view. (You changed the wording from what I said so you could attack what was easier to refute lol)

>It’s an attribute of Allah how is that not monotheistic? Does your god operate in time? And in terms of the hands thing it’s disputed but still no cooperation to monotheism. The tanakh also has verses of gods hands face and arms

Yes but we understand the limbs in those verses to be allegorical (See Rambam's introduction to Hilchot Yesodei Hatorah in Mishneh Torah). Hashem does not have a "hand" or "eyes".

>Let’s not forget I’m talking to an Israeli. Free Palestine and stop bombing kids.

Palestinians have been killing and displacing Jews in rape massacres, including children, including antizionist Jews in Palestine who were there centuries before Zionism (in Hebrod, Safed, Gaza, etc) for 15+ years before the first Zionist violence against them in 1936 , and 28+ years before the nakba, all while the policy of the only Yishuv's militia at the time was explicitly not to retaliate (so Palestinians cannot even use the excuse that they were resisting occupation or retaliating). At this point, the stance of the overwhelming majority of Zionists was peaceful binationalism and coexistence, and their actions backed it up. Palestinians have also killed Jewish kids even when there were peace offers on the table that they rejected in favor of doing more terrorism (such as the second intifada), and they have killed random Jewish children in cold blood in many terrorist attacks for decades now.

Furthermore, Sunni Muslims kill other Muslim (and non-Muslim) children in conflicts all over the region today in continued rape massacres, and your hadiths talk about killing children of the enemy during conquest (including checking the pubic hairs of Banu Qurayza) without any condemnation. In just the last year Sunni Arabs have been raping and massacring minorities in Syria now that they have taken power. The last person in the world who has any right to lecture anyone about killing and wartime morality is the Sunni Muslim. I generally try to treat people as individuals by default but since this is the game you want to play during a religious debate when I never brought up Israel or Palestine, I want you to know that you should be holding your head down in shame for the history of your sect.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

While Christians are doing shituf (shirk) according to Judaism, Sunnis are not quite monotheists either because they reject absolute divine simplicity. For example, the Quran is seen as uncreated, yet not Allah himself, that creates multiple subjects that are uncreated. Then some like the Salafis attribute hands, feet, etc. to Allah in a literal sense. Only the Shia would be considered monotheists per our view because they hold the Quran is created and share our belief in absolute divine simplicity.

So again, while we do believe that the first of the Ten Commandments is a prohibition on shituf (shirk), and that Christians are in violation of that — in debate, I don’t think it’s as simple as just pointing to the fact that they bow before icons (which I want to be clear is forbidden for us and I condemn it) as proving that they are doing idolatry, because they do not believe that the icon itself IS god or Jesus. You would have to get into the metaphysics of the trinity and demonstrate why the triune god itself of Christianity is not monotheism (which I would agree it is not).

For example, Jews bowed before the ark, but they do not believe that the ark IS Hashem chv”s, but merely a manifestation/representation of His glory/honor in the world, and that is being used as a conduit to venerate Hashem, not the object itself.

[Asian Kosher Cowboy 🇮🇱🇺🇸 אוריה שמואל @0321K9]

UPDATE 🇮🇱🇺🇦

Israel has declared that they won’t allow the Russian vessel involved to dock or unload.

The private wheat importer has ordered the ship to turn away.

Worth noting: this call came from the Grain Importers Association, instead of the MFA or other government ministries. Intentional or not, it suggests this whole mess initially started as a commercial move, not an official policy.

Textbook case of how poor communication, and bad diplomacy from even an individual can spiral out of control.

Hopefully this settles things for now between Israel & Ukraine. But the damage done will take a long time to repair, if it can be at all.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

@Tsunderai1984 And that's exactly all I've been saying. Even just pretending to care with a simple "we'll look into it as soon as we can" would have gone so far. Instead we get a snark slapfight.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

>"But why did Zelensky publicly blast Israel instead of dealing with it privately and through the official channels first like he did with Egypt!?"

The initial story about the first tanker was only even publicly reported on April 15. The Ukrainian ambassador met with Israeli foreign ministry officials back on March 27 about this issue. Israel had over 2 weeks to deal with it before any public reporting, and a month before Zelensky's tweet. Gideon Saar's tweet about "twitter diplomacy" is even more insane with this context in mind.

https://t.co/nwVMFmqtP6

[Reince Niebuhr has a complex backstory 🇺🇸 🧊 🐶 @ReinceNiebuhr]

From your quoted post

Egypts approach was having Ukraine raise it in private direct conversation

Israel’s approach was have Ukraine blast it on X

I don’t see how you can blame israel for how Ukraine decided to take care of its business

None of the reasons that explain ukraines divergent approaches to israel and Egypt (not to speak of Turkey) are good

[Mj✡︎ @motivatedjoy]

Many Israelis themselves are doing a much better job of explaining where Israel has gone wrong on Ukraine than anyone else I’ve seen so far.

Ironically, some of the most unbiased and rational voices you’ll find on this issue are Israelis themselves. I’m not sure what the psychology is there, but at least on my fyp it’s been a noteworthy and consistent thing.
Of course you’ll also find the Bibi fanatics and general morons, so just filter accordingly.

Those of us in the diaspora can become overzealous and defensive all while being further removed from the situation. It’s important we check ourselves sometimes to make sure we aren’t falling into that trap.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

@PaoloBorg @AdrianP_doc I'm against this but I still reject the framing of the original tweet.

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

Glad I could do that for you; I would never tell you to be quiet about this and I understand why you are rightfully frustrated. The future politics could improve, and I hope they do, but it would require a whole other long effortpost to go into the details of that.

Anyway, you might enjoy this work from an artist who is based in Jerusalem. He is Jewish and Israeli (not Ukrainian) but very passionate about Ukraine and has done a lot of other artwork about Ukraine to fundraise for the war effort.

https://t.co/RKP0wjESme

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

@OMG_TOP1 @AdrianP_doc https://t.co/KEUgChcurQ

[average talmud enjoyer @AmKsheOref]

>"But why did Zelensky publicly blast Israel instead of dealing with it privately and through the official channels first like he did with Egypt!?"

The initial story about the first tanker was only even publicly reported on April 15. The Ukrainian ambassador met with Israeli foreign ministry officials back on March 27 about this issue. Israel had over 2 weeks to deal with it before any public reporting, and a month before Zelensky's tweet. Gideon Saar's tweet about "twitter diplomacy" is even more insane with this context in mind.

https://t.co/nwVMFmqtP6