@FrankLets78822 Exactly! Jeremiah was WRONG about the potter and clay relationship!
Paul puts him in his place! Its actually the OPPOSITE of what Jeremiah says.
@OzMarquezz This seems like just Limited Atonement smuggled back in by way of Limited Faith.
If faith is necessary for reconciliation and faith is limited then God is not really providing way for all men to be reconciled.
The L stands just with a slightly different name.
@OzMarquezz P4: The distinguishing factor is the condition on which reconciliation is recieved.
C: Therefore there is a condition upon which a person is reconciled to God
(2/2)
@OzMarquezz P1: God had provided a way for all men to be reconciled to Him.
P2: All men are not reconciled to Him.
P3: Therefore, there must be a difference between men that are reconciled to God from those who are not.
(1/2)
@FrankLets78822 Absolutely!
Paul probably wasn't familiar with the potter and clay in Jeremiah!
Why would we think that these exactly matching analogies would have anything to do with each other?!
@FrankLets78822 Absolutely!
Paul probably wasn't familiar with the potter and clay in Jeremiah!
Why would we think that these exactly matching analogies would have anything to do with each other?!
@YinKysmileS Well said.
White has an odd double standard where he is allowed to use outside texts when he thinks it helps his point but his opponents must stay in the immediate text.
"We must take all scripture into accou....NO NOT THOSE!"
@HwsEleutheroi@smfoushee@YinKysmileS Exactly!
What does the potter and clay analogy have to do with the potter and clay analogy!
Are we sure Paul is even familiar with Jeremiah??
Where is the evidence!!
@DPGBehler I could be wrong, but I think he has decided to become a Calvinist and is just soft launching himself into that position.
He is already a pastoring a Lutheran church if I remember right.
@ErickYbarra3@patristic_typos@adp5121@Guitardo7 But I don't see "the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus at the cross" in the early church or scripture.
PSA and the reformers treat this as a very specific punishment from God not just a general, "He suffered life we suffer when tortured on earth" way.
@ErickYbarra3@patristic_typos@adp5121@Guitardo7 I haven't read Damascene. I am just pointing out that what I have been given isn't supporting PSA as it is usually taught.
Usually PSA is expressed as Jesus taking the eternal punishment for sin not just joining us in the curse from Genesis by becoming man.
@patristic_typos@adp5121@Guitardo7@ErickYbarra3 Nothing here supports the specific claim of PSA that Christ took God's wrath as punishment for sin INSTEAD (substitution) of us.
We all suffer and will die of this world also.
Christ coming under our curse with us is not PSA.
(Or if it is then everyone believes PSA)
@patristic_typos@adp5121@Guitardo7 Someone who disagrees with PSA would be fine with that quote...PSA must be assumed and then read into the quote.
Saying it's "PSA type language" is unhelpful as it is also "Recapitulation type language" or "Christus Victor Type Language" or any other atonement.
@OzMarquezz I would love to see a discussion with you and @HwsEleutheroi on this topic.
(I don't care for debates as much but maybe that's all White would accept, idk.)