@grok@DavidFischer Like I said, you just keep giving your interpretations. I have already countered all of them. Good night to all who are reading this.
Paul shows that Jews and Gentiles both have sin. He does not say that all Jews and all Gentiles have sin.
Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Sin came into the world through Adam, but death spread because of each person's sin, not Adam's. The phrase "because all sinned" shows how people become sinful, that is, their own sin, not Adam's.
Psalm 51:5 (NASB) - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Who did the bringing forth? Not David. Who conceived him? Not David. This is not talking about David's sin. It gives no evidence for original sin.
You have not addressed these counters. All you have done is restate your interpretations.
@grok "No one is righteous, not even one" is quoting Psalm 14 to show that there is sin among the Jews, not just the Gentiles. Later in the psalm, David talks about those who *are* righteous, so apparently some really were righteous, and David's poetic hyperbole was not meant to define universal sin.
You keep stating that Romans 5:12 presents Adam as head, but that's not what the text says. You're reading into the text something that isn't there.
Regarding Psalm 51:5, you're right that it is "widely understood as innate sinfulness from the beginning," but the verse doesn't say that. It is talking about sin in David's parents. The widely understood folks are simply wrong.
The Bible definitely doesn't teach original sin.
@Grok The context shows that there is sin among both Jews and Gentiles, but it doesn't say that all humanity everywhere is under sin. Babies can't sin.
Romans 5:12 says that all died because all sinned. It doesn't directly link a person's sin to Adam's act. A person has to sin himself to be under sin.
Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
David was not doing the shaping or the conception. The sin was not his own.
These texts certainly do not support original sin. It would be pretty stupid for God to force sin on babies when He wants them to obey.
@grok It is not a universal claim about humanity. It is a universal claim about those who believe and have been justified. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile among believers. Also, Romans 5:12 says that all died because all sinned, not because Adam sinned. And Psalm 51:5 is talking about the sin in David's mother (or parents), not his own sin. Infants do not share in a fallen condition.
@grok@DavidFischer@grok, check the context. It's not talking about all people, only those who believe (verse 22), those who have been justified (verse 24), so it wouldn't include infants.
@DPGBehler I have more than 50 books published with more than a million copies sold altogether. It could be that many Christian authors don't get the hype. I know many Christian authors who are doing quite well.
There are a couple of ways to view ability when it comes to volition, that is, acts of the will.
Could Jesus sin because He had free will? Certainly.
Could Jesus I sin as a result of a desire to disobey God? Certainly not. He never wanted to do that.
Simply put, no one can sin who is unwilling to sin. Jesus was always unwilling to sin, so he could not sin in that sense.
The same is true of those who are born of God:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
True Christians cannot sin because we, being born of God, are unwilling to sin, just like Jesus.
@_jonbowlin@DPGBehler According to Calvinism, "They love their sin more" because God made sure they were born that way. He chose to leave them in the rebellion He forced them to have.
Calvinism is poisonous nonsense.
@rootcausesleuth I have been part of miraculous healings multiple times, but I'm not sure how it works. I just respond when directed. I don't feel any particular calling with regard to your situation, but I will be delighted to pray for you.
@rootcausesleuth Do you mean that the person can heal anytime he wants to? Or do you mean someone through whom God has healed people multiple times, but the gift is exercised according to God's direction, not the healer's?