I don’t have time to play on X all day. I’ll leave you with a couple thoughts:
1. Daniel 7 (and much more in Daniel) is absolutely about Jesus. Jesus identifies Himself as the Son of Man over 80 times across all 4 Gospels. The Jews to whom Jesus was speaking knew right away that He was claiming to be “one like a son of man” from Daniel 7. This Son of Man comes on the clouds of Heaven, an act reserved only for Yahweh. By giving Himself the title “Son of Man”, Jesus infuriated the Jews because He made Himself out to be God. Again, a 21st century Muslim can’t see this, but 1st century Jews did instantly and wanted Him killed over this.
2. In both the original Aramaic and the later Greek of the Septuagint, the words used for the “worship” of this Son of Man are reserved for God. In Aramaic, the word pelach is used by Daniel only for serving a deity - the God of Israel worshipped earlier in Daniel and the worship given to false gods by pagans. In either case it involves serving/worshipping a deity. Daniel could have used other words like shimesh to show honor being given to a mere human. And when the Jews translated Daniel 7 into Greek, they used the word latreuo, which is for service/worship of God. That with this Son of Man riding the clouds of Heaven shows that He is divine. Psalms 18, 68 and 104 all show Yahweh riding the clouds, which shows it as a divine act. The Son of Man in Daniel is identified as riding the clouds, and therefore shown as Yahweh. And Jesus’ statement about Himself coming on the clouds of Heaven shows that He is this divine Son of Man. One of the main points about this figure being identified by Daniel as “one like a son of man” is because it was a mystery to Daniel as to why what looked like a mere man was worshipped as a God and performing an act (riding the clouds) reserved for God.
3. Final thought - Thomas’ exclamation of “my Lord and my God” couldn’t be more clear. It’s John’s bookend - he shows Jesus’ divinity at the beginning of his Gospel and now at the end as His Apostles come to fully realize this. And so many places in between we see this as well.
That’s all for me with you two clowns. Get off the keyboard and go see the world a little.
I don’t have time to play on X all day .
I’ll leave you with a couple thoughts:
1. There was no issue among early Muslims with Paul. The objections to Paul began centuries after Muhammad’s death. Overwhelmingly, he was seen as a follower of Jesus. If you disagree with those who lived closer to the time of your prophet, what else did the followers of Muhammad get wrong that you and the Dawah crew figured out 1400 years later?
2. This issue is easily ended by calling on the Islamic Dilemma. Muhammad endorsed the previous Scriptures. At the time of Muhammad, Paul’s writings and Acts (which tells us a lot about Paul) had been established as Christian Scripture for centuries. If your all-wise Allah saw Paul as an imposter, he forgot to make an exception about his teachings when he dropped “revelations” to Muhammad. If Paul posed a danger to the people who you claim are the true followers of Jesus by contradicting His message, why didn’t Allah mention this? He allowed the early Muslims, like the ones I mentioned, to fall for a false teacher if that is in fact what Paul was. Just like Allah allowed many millions to fall for the idea that Jesus died on the cross by replacing Jesus at the last minute, as most Muslims believe. I guess we can blame everything on Allah if we got these things wrong.
I’m done dealing with you. You Muslims must sit at your screen all day, every day. Your Islamic Dilemma wipes out pretty much ALL objections to the Christian Scriptures and the Old Testament. That’s where I’ll leave this.
May you come to see the light of Christ and then to live and serve Him.
@Hacheenanaz @Al_Zutt_FM@MMetaphysician Running? Your fat ass sheikh Uthman literally spent 2 nights in his mosque last month unwilling to come out for an agreed-upon debate with Avery
@Hacheenanaz @JizyahEnforcer@zimathy@muslimorthodoxy Nobody is deflecting, fat ass. It’s relevant because you are claiming that John the Apostle didn’t write the Gospel named for him, yet by the standard for which you make this claim your own beliefs have no legs to stand on.
I just realized you’re the jizyah enforcer. What do you come collect from Christians like a mob juice loan guy? Do you dress up like the Transformers you play with to scare them into paying? Dude grow up.
You think you had a “gotcha” moment here but Christians know that Jesus Christ is priest, prophet and king. He’s a priest in that He represents man to the Father in offering their prayers to Him and making sacrifice for their sins. He’s a prophet in that He brings messages from Heaven to man. He’s king of all creation, and everything is His.
You cited someone calling Jesus a prophet. Of course, as He had not fully revealed Himself and those not in His inner circle would be aware of His true identity.
Jesus also referred to Himself as a prophet because that was one of His roles. Being a prophet does nothing to diminish His divinity.
In your Quran, who sends out prophets? Can mere men do it? No. Quran 22:75 says that Allah chooses messengers from among angels and men. Yet Jesus sends prophets out on His own. In Matthew 23:34 Jesus says “I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers.”
@JizyahEnforcer@zimathy@muslimorthodoxy Until you look at the Gospels through the eyes of the people of that time and place and understand how Christ fulfilled the OT and ushered in the New Covenant, you’ll be lost trying to explain it through your semen-stained prophet’s eyes 600 years later.
You can argue all day but you argue against early Islamic scholars. The Muslim obsession with using Paul as a scapegoat began centuries after your prophet lived.
Ibn Ishaq (d. 767 CE): In his Sira (biography of Muhammad), he lists Paul as one of the disciples commissioned by Jesus to evangelize. He specifically notes that Jesus sent Peter and Paul to Rome to carry his message.
Al-Tabari (d. 923 CE): In his influential Tafsir (Quranic commentary), he mentions Paul as one of the three messengers sent to the city of Antioch, as referenced in Surah Ya-Sin (36:13–14).
Ibn Kathir (d. 1373 CE): While later than the earliest period, he preserved these older traditions, identifying Paul as the "third messenger" who reinforced Peter and John in their mission. He describes Paul as a "slave of Allah" and acknowledges his mission to the Gentiles.
He praised God for the works He (meaning God) had done through Paul's ministry. He was thankful to God for work done through Paul. In other words, Paul was carrying out the work that Jesus had entrusted to the Apostles. Paul was on the same team as the Apostles. James was happy that Paul was successfully preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles. Therefore, Paul was one of those followers of Jesus who was superior along with James and the others over those who were not true followers of Christ.
Maybe that's really you in the picture. Are you a child?
What don't you get? I never said that James "praised Paul". I wrote that James praised God because of what Paul had told them about his success among the Gentiles. Acts 21 shows that Paul visited JAMES and the others. It tells you right there that they praised God.
What else needs to be shown to you to get you to understand things?
Why do you think Umar urged Muhammad to have them wear the veil? It's right there in the Hadith I posted. Does al-Bukhari have to use explicit language to get his point across? Umar was embarrassed for Muhammad that his women were recognizable when they were going out in the open to do their thing.
First off, you don't even believe in John as reliable (unless it serves your purpose). If you want to use John to disprove Jesus' divinity, you will run into problems. John begins his Gospel explicitly calling Jesus God in John 1, and ends it (chapter 20, second to last) with Jesus accepting Thomas' worship, "my Lord and my God". And between those chapters, Jesus' divinity is proclaimed all over the place. One example is when Jesus tells the Jews that "before Abraham was, I AM". The Jews tried to stone Him on the spot for this. You may not recognize that as a claim to divinity, but they did.
Secondly, Jesus was subject to the Father in His humanity. He voluntarily lowered Himself to take on a human nature to save us. On the night before He died, Jesus spoke of going back to the Father. He stood there in His human nature able to call the Father greater than Himself.
So you haven't proven anything.
I'm busy for a few hours. Go play with your Transformers and I'll respond to you tonight or tomorrow. Peace kid.
@aliyuyy123@MasterMaliq How about you tell me what "answer the call of nature" means? Sometimes it's #1, sometimes #2. It included defecating. Unless you want to stick to solely urinating. Does that make it better?
Acts 21:17-20 "When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God."
Clement of Rome, a successor of Peter, wrote of Paul's martyrdom. That's within 30 years of its occurrence.
If you want to compare apples to apples, your most reliable Hadiths (al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim) were written 200 years after Muhammad's death. It doesn't matter about your chain of narration. We have strong oral records as well. 200 years is 200 years. If you want to doubt 30 years, you can toss 200 years in the toilet as far as reliability.
I am working. I don't have time to discuss the divinity of Jesus now, but send over your "proof" of superiority. I can get back to you by tomorrow.
Again, nobody outside of the Muslim world sees Muslims as the followers of Jesus. It's kind of like if I called myself the greatest basketball player ever. I can tell myself all day that I'm the best ever and maybe I'll be crazy enough to believe it, but everyone else knows it's not true. Same goes for your claim that Muslims are the "superior" followers of Jesus.
Jesus is equal to the Father in His divinity, yet subject to Him in His humanity.
Don't throw your math at me. First fix Allah's math errors in regard to inheritance.
One thing I know is that your false prophet is subject to Jesus. Muhammad found that out real quick upon his miserable death when He was judged by Christ.
@JizyahEnforcer@zimathy@muslimorthodoxy I'm not worried about what some obscure Lutheran guy had to say about it. If you want to go there, you're done. Nobody takes the perfect preservation argument and the reliability of your Hadiths seriously.