@patisfaction34@SquatchBiggs@AnsweringRCs Yep, you said it. Through GRACE we are saved. Thus, receiving the Eucharist “preserves, increases, and renews the life of GRACE received at Baptism.” See CCC 1391–1392. Not a work by man rather a GRACE received from God.
Never would I ever concede that Augustine denies the real presence. Augustine confirms over and over the Eucharist. In your quote he merely states that Christ is not going to cut himself up into literal pieces there on the spot. St. Thomas Aquinas frequently cites St. Augustine when explaining the Eucharist. We can just stick with a few citations of Augustine.
Just a few sermons of his on Eucharistic theology:
Sermon 227 — on the Easter sacrament and the body of Christ
Sermon 228 — on the Eucharist and the unity of Christ’s body
Sermon 229 — on the Easter octave and receiving the sacrament
Sermon 229A — an additional Easter sermon concerning the Eucharist
Sermon 272 — on the Eucharist as the sign and sacrament of ecclesial unity
Sermon 131 — especially the discussion of John 6 and eating Christ’s flesh
Sermon 132 — continuation of the Johannine discourse and Eucharistic interpretation
Sermon 234 — on John 6 and the bread of life
Sermon 235 — on the Eucharist and faith in Christ
Sermon 236 — on Christ’s body and blood
Sermon 246 — on the Eucharistic mystery
Sermon Denis 3 — a sermon traditionally associated with Augustine and frequently discussed in relation to Eucharistic theology
Some further citations and quotes of his writings.
Augustine. "Well, then, let us remove the doubt; let us now listen to the Lord, and not to men's notions and conjectures; let us, I say, hear what the Lord says — not indeed concerning the sacrament of the laver, but concerning the sacrament of His own holy table, to which none but a baptized person has a right to approach: “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you shall have no life in you.” John 6:53 What do we want more? What answer to this can be adduced, unless it be by that obstinacy which ever resists the constancy of manifest truth?" On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants Ch 26
On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, Book I, chapter 33
“His remedial advent is needed by those that are sick, not by the whole: for He came not to call the righteous, but sinners; and into His kingdom shall enter no one that is not born again of water and the Spirit; nor shall any one attain salvation and eternal life except in His kingdom, — since the man who believes not in the Son, and eats not His flesh, shall not have life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.” 4
On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, Book I, chapter 27
“Will, however, any man be so bold as to say that this statement has no relation to infants, and that they can have life in them without partaking of His body and blood — on the ground that He does not say, Except one eat, but ‘Except you eat;’ as if He were addressing those who were able to hear and to understand, which of course infants cannot do?”
“But he who says this is inattentive; because, unless all are embraced in the statement, that without the body and the blood of the Son of man men cannot have life, it is to no purpose that even the elder age is solicitous of it.”
“What also becomes of the statement which He makes in the same context on this very point: ‘The bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world?’ John 6:51”
“From all this it follows, that even for the life of infants was His flesh given, which He gave for the life of the world; and that even they will not have life if they eat not the flesh of the Son of man.” 2
n Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, Book I, chapter 34
“The Christians of Carthage have an excellent name for the sacraments, when they say that baptism is nothing else than ‘salvation,’ and the sacrament of the body of Christ nothing else than ‘life.’”
“Whence, however, was this derived, but from that primitive, as I suppose, and apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ maintain it to be an inherent principle, that without baptism and partaking of the supper of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and everlasting life?”
“And what else do they say who call the sacrament of the Lord's Supper life, than that which is written: ‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven;’ John 6:51 and ‘The bread that I shall give is my flesh, for the life of the world;’ John 6:51 and ‘Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you shall have no life in you?’ John 6:53”
“If, therefore, as so many and such divine witnesses agree, neither salvation nor eternal life can be hoped for by any man without baptism and the Lord's body and blood, it is vain to promise these blessings to infants without them.”
“We therefore ought not to doubt that even for infants yet to be baptized was that precious blood shed, which previous to its actual effusion was so given, and applied in the sacrament, that it was said, ‘This is my blood, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins.’ Matthew 26:28” 3
@renewingprotest@grok Did you even read Grok response. "Same writers affirmed real presence. The post suggestion that Fathers denied is not supported. 5 out of 10 for accuracy". Verified🔥
Sure, I'll take a stab at it.
1. Your argument makes a claim that the Catholic church has not and has never made. “Sunday didn’t “become the seventh-day Sabbath.” The Christian claim is that the Mosaic Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ and the Lord’s Day became the day of Christian worship.
2. Constantine didn’t invent Sunday worship. Justin Martyr describes Christians gathering on Sunday for Scripture, prayer and the Eucharist around AD 150—about 170 years before Constantine’s Sunday law. The Didache completed before the year 100 instructs Christians, “Every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving…”
3. Col. 2:16 is also hard to dismiss. “Festival, new moon, Sabbath” is the standard OT pattern for annual, monthly and weekly observances, and Paul calls them a “shadow” fulfilled in Christ.
4. Acts 15 is just as important: when the apostles decide what parts of the Mosaic law Gentile Christians must observe, they never command Sabbath observance.
5. So yes, Saturday is the seventh day. Nobody disputes that. The real question is whether the Mosaic Sabbath remains binding on Christians under the New Covenant. The NT and the earliest Christian history give very good reasons to say no.
@IlliniRefugee@andavibos01@CedarsAndSaints Ezekiel 44:2 This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
Morality? If there morals are so good why are they killing themselves and their children at such high rates. Abortion rate: ~18 per 1,000 women (15–44), one of the higher rates in Europe and highest among Nordic countries. Suicide rate: Age ~12.4 per 100,000, the highest among Nordic countries
Not supported by history is easily refuted especially your comment about "leftovers". Justin Martyr 150 AD. Ch 65. "those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion."