Economancer

I am a high priest of the Economicon!

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@kardzyt @Gedeon_Optinius @kseniaofptrs The question is textual: Chelidze relies on Amb. 42 but never addresses inherited condemnation in Maximus (κατάκριμα, τιμωρία, ὑπόδικος; cf. Ad Thal. 61).
If I’m wrong, quote him.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@kardzyt @Gedeon_Optinius @kseniaofptrs Hey! I read his work on What kind of Body was assumed by the Savour \ The body of Adam before the Fall (before the Sin) or after the fall (after the Sin)? I disagree with his conclusions. So, there is that.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@Acolyte83349490 @SkxrtchM @st_palamas Saying “all grounded in agency” just begs the question if agency is defined in advance as purely personal. Aristotle recognizes political and office-based agency, which is why tyranny is condemned when responsibility collapses into isolated will.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@Acolyte83349490 @SkxrtchM @st_palamas If responsibility were purely personal, politics itself would be incoherent.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@Acolyte83349490 @SkxrtchM @st_palamas In Aristotle, the worst regime is defined as the one where responsibility is purely personal.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@Acolyte83349490 @SkxrtchM @st_palamas Aristotle grounds personal blame in voluntary action, not all responsibility or blame. He explicitly affirms household and political responsibility. So no, Aristotle doesn’t support reducing responsibility to isolated self-determination.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@SkxrtchM @Acolyte83349490 @st_palamas Reorientation of the definition away from modernist personalism:

Liability = a normatively binding exposure to judgment, debt, sanction, or required repair by virtue of participation in a shared order of action or nature.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@SkxrtchM @Acolyte83349490 @st_palamas When I defined guilt.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@SkxrtchM @st_palamas @Acolyte83349490 Yes.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@SkxrtchM @Acolyte83349490 @st_palamas I defined earlier.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@Acolyte83349490 @SkxrtchM @st_palamas I’ve given texts that plainly show corporate punishment and responsibility. If you think they don’t show that, the burden is now on you to explain why they don’t.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@Acolyte83349490 @SkxrtchM @st_palamas We’ve reached the point where meaning itself is being relativized. I’m content to let Maximus speak for himself.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@Acolyte83349490 @SkxrtchM @st_palamas How about this, read the texts and see if they display corporate punishment and responsibility. If you disagree we can further this along.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@Acolyte83349490 @SkxrtchM @st_palamas No one is claiming Maximus’ concept of debt = Calvin’s. The point is simpler: Maximus himself uses juridical language to describe an inherited, blameless liability of nature that Christ assumes and resolves. Relativizing concepts doesn’t negate the argument he’s making.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@Acolyte83349490 @SkxrtchM @st_palamas 1. Debt theory precedes the Scholastics.
2. That doesn't help your position and falls on to my side.

debt of consequence is still objective liability. deficiency incurred by nature is still juridically binding. Maximus explicitly links that debt to death, pain, and condemnation

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@Acolyte83349490 @SkxrtchM @st_palamas That's not a response nor a rejoinder. 2 Samuel 24, Joshua 7... But a few passages of collective punishment for personal transgressions by someone. So, yes, God does condemnations.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@Acolyte83349490 @SkxrtchM @st_palamas This just assumes what’s in dispute. Responsibility is not identical to personal causal contribution. Fathers, kings, Adam, and Christ are responsible for others without causing each individual act.

[Economancer @Economancer1]

@SkxrtchM @st_palamas @Acolyte83349490 Every pain… is naturally a debt that must be paid by all who share in human nature.” (61.3)

“Blameless” in Maximus means not personally chosen, not non-juridical. Pain, death, and corruption are debts of nature, inherited from Adam and paid by Christ.