Anon

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@SluttyColicoid @KaskaJessica I’m aware of this study. It shows sexuality to be probabilistic and multivariate - because even birth order effect isn’t highly deterministic, it’s simply one factor amongst many.

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@whatiswhatminor @KaskaJessica Kids have “crushes” but this does not indicate anything about their sexual orientation. Lots of gay men report having had crushes on girls at 7, for example. The point is:

👏Kids do not have a sexual orientation 👏

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@arietomlinson @kevinmyoung I do recognise that the lived experiential reality of this is "I was born gay" because no-one chose that developmental pathway and it's impossible to interrupt it or alter it once set. But I think this is a far more realistic concept of orientation than "I was born gay"

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@arietomlinson @kevinmyoung But you can see in that enormously simplified chain how biological / genetic factors that shape personality then trigger and domino into social factors and forms of social exposure which shape your imagination around gender and phsyiological response to sex.

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@arietomlinson @kevinmyoung There might be 50 or more factors that shape a person's sexuality. I'm simply arguing (from the science!) that not all of these are determined in the womb, and those that are determined in the womb aren't deterministic of a set outcome.

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@arietomlinson @kevinmyoung Sexuality seems to be determined by a complex range of factors that we have no control over. What I'm arguing in NO WAY diminishes the experience gay people have of *discovering* they are gay in the course of puberty, and finding it to be a hard wired trait.

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@SilentSkyZero @kevinmyoung And we know this because genetic conditions ALSO don't seem to determine sexuality! Even inter-sex genetics or other variations of sexual development.

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@SilentSkyZero @kevinmyoung So yes, sexual orientation can be described as "hard wired". But I don't think this simply means it is driven by our biological "hardware" in the way that a genetic condition such as trisomy or intersex conditions clearly are.

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@KaskaJessica My sexuality is just as complex, rich and personal as yours is. There is hope for me and for all of us. Good day!

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@KaskaJessica OK, I don't think I'm going to engage any further. I don't have any hostility towards you and apologise if you have felt attacked.

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@KaskaJessica Some children have a continuous experience of their sexual identity and orientation emerging into adulthood. In these cases one can retrospectively say "I always knew". But most children experience a confusing swirl of feelings and self understandings that only settle later.

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@KaskaJessica Human development is continuous, complex and individual. Which you know!

The political utility of saying that someone was "born gay' is huge. But it doesn't help us to describe reality in this instance, and can lead to strange ideas that prematurely sexualise children.

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@SilentSkyZero @kevinmyoung I have looked these things up very carefully.

The state of the science does not support the idea of a genetic predeterminer of sexual orientation.

AI summarises this pretty well

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@KaskaJessica "Sexual orientation" describes sexual arousal and attraction. No seven year old should have any concept of this in the way you describe except by abuse. Social recognition of gender of course develops earlier but that's not what you meant by "knew I was gay" is it?

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@SilentSkyZero @kevinmyoung ...and our physiological response is shaped by: hormone factors, relational experience, our social learning of gender, and a wide range of other factors too discrete to even list. Human traits emerge in exposure to the world, even the most obviously genetic conditions!

[Anon @GreTrePergo]

@SilentSkyZero @kevinmyoung I'm not sure you're following my claims here.

I'm not arguing that sexuality can be changed (once it has emerged). And I'm not arguing that sexuality has no basis in biology or genetics.
I'm saying sexual "orientation" is a description of our physiological response...