Gubbanoa

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

@ForeverKuffar @EricAyodel90479 I will leave you to think about it. 😉

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

@ForeverKuffar @EricAyodel90479 🤣

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

Got it. So the footprint is not “this cannot be a brute accident.” It is crosses in the atoms and the name Jesus.

If the universe had a cause, and that cause was a mind, but it did not stamp a Christian logo on the physics. Well, would that still count as a creator for you? Or does only branded evidence count?

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

I’m still on the first thing.

You said the universe existing is not evidence of a creator, and an uncreated universe is still viable.

You also said uncommanded evidence could count if coincidence and other explanations were ruled out.

For that - the universe, not the church’s history (yet) - what kind of “footprint or code” would be enough?

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

Sorry, be patient with me. I am doing my best to answer well.

You’re asking for two things: a way to check that it really happened, and a process you can watch so coincidence gets smaller. That is fair.

Sorry to ask again, but does that process have to be something you can run yourself, like a test or would a public, checkable record still count?

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

@ForeverKuffar @EricAyodel90479 I’m not pretending it’s trivial. A streak of specific answers that coincidence can’t carry would be serious.

Very serious.

One thing I’m still unclear on: does that streak have to happen to you, in front of you or would a checkable pattern in someone else’s life count as well?

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

@ForeverKuffar @EricAyodel90479 Interesting. That’s it? 😂

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

Fair. History doesn’t “demonstrate” the way a lab does. It ranks explanations. You already use that method for Jesus existing, the crucifixion, Paul’s letters, and every other first-century fact. You just raise the bar here.

So name the better explanation. Hallucination? Stolen body? Legend inside 20 years? Which one actually covers the appearances (including groups and enemies), James, Paul, the early Jerusalem proclamation, and the 1 Cor 15 creed or haha all at once?

“They believed they saw something” is the data. It is not the explanation.

Whether you’d accept the terms afterward is a different question. This one is only whether it happened.

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

You just moved the posts. Again.

Lifetime writing from Judea is a test almost no provincial teacher meets, but your credit, you already granted Jesus existed.

Now, irrelevance does not fit churches in multiple cities, letters circulating in the 50s, (20 years after crucifixion) and a former persecutor joining the movement decades before year 70.

The revolt thesis is backwards. Paul is already planting congregations in Syria, Asia Minor, Greece, and writing to Rome before the war.

The catastrophe of 70 wrecked Judea; it did not invent Gentile churches that already existed. An offshoot that small does not need a war to explain letters already crossing the empire.

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

@BLOODYBHENCHODE @jimmobob @God_Questioner Hello again. I thought you folded.

Just one more thing. If “primary” means same-day Roman minutes from Judea, do you also score Socrates, Hannibal, and Pilate as zero or does that test apply only to Jesus?

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

Adults convert to Christ daily after weighing evidence: empty tomb, eyewitnesses, exploded church. Even me. Childhood conditioning does not explain that - or those who leave and return.

You already said that if God stood before you, you still would not worship because you judge Him evil. That is not letting evidence speak. It is revolt.

Romans 1: people suppress truth they know. Man-made religions fade. The risen Christ remains.

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

I didn’t say that. I was still sitting with what you wrote: uncommanded evidence would count too, if coincidence and other explanations could be ruled out. Can I ask what “ruled out” looks like for you? A one-off, or something that keeps happening in a way you could check?

Sorry a bit late in answering.

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

Thanks. That’s a real list.

Footprint / code, miracles on command, prayers that materialise, uniform NDEs. Interesting.

One clarification: “on command” means God must perform on your schedule, like a lab instrument?

If a miracle, a code in nature, or answered prayer happened without you getting to order it, would that still count or only if you can summon it?

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

@ForeverKuffar @EricAyodel90479 Is that a hard question for you?

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

@ForeverKuffar @EricAyodel90479 So you mean (a): the existence of the world itself does not even count as information that could point to a cause beyond the world.
Is that right?

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

@ForeverKuffar @EricAyodel90479 When you say “no evidence,” do you mean
(a) there are no facts that could point to a Creator, or
(b) none of those facts force you to accept one?
Those are different.

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

@ForeverKuffar @EricAyodel90479 Why you think universe came to be without God is truth is beyond me. But I am glad you are aware of your condition. Maybe you want it that way.

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

The distinction is fair. History never “demonstrates” a past event the way a lab demonstrates a reaction. It argues to the best explanation. You already accept that method for every other first-century fact. You drop it only here.

So a real question: if God did meet your standard (not Craig’s inference, but a demonstration you would personally call proof) would you want to be rescued on his terms, or only on yours?

[Gubbanoa @GubbanoaToa]

Protestantism did not put man at the center. Luther’s breakthrough was that man cannot justify himself; salvation is by grace through faith alone, to God’s glory. Schopenhauer’s claim that dropping meritorious celibacy abandoned Christianity’s kernel is a pessimist’s metaphysics, not the gospel. The NT honors marriage and treats mandatory clerical celibacy as later discipline. Princes and church corruption exploited the movement, as they exploited religion everywhere. That does not make justification by faith a hydra of anthropocentrism. Nationalism and print were European-wide, not uniquely Protestant inventions.