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[Madlad @mladner30]

@Thewebb_io Game changer 20/10 recommend

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Divin' DEEP.

[Madlad @mladner30]

This is the thread most people were never supposed to follow. Sabbatai Zevi declares himself Messiah. Half the Jewish world of that century follows him. Then he converts to Islam. The doctrine that survives is not “keep the Law.” It is the opposite: redemption through deliberate violation of the Law. Fasting days become feast days. Taboo becomes sacrament.

A century later Jacob Frank picks it up and radicalizes it. He claims to be Zevi reincarnated and Jacob, and God walking around in a body. He does not hide the method. Apostasy is strategy. Conversion to other religions is not defeat; it is infiltration. Sexual transgression is framed as purification of the soul. Orthodox rabbis of the time treated this as a heresy to be burned out of Judaism. They were not guessing. They had the sect in front of them.

That much is not internet lore. Zevi and Frank are in the archives. Gershom Scholem wrote the famous essay on it: Redemption Through Sin. Paweł Maciejko’s The Mixed Multitude is the modern scholarly book on Frankism. The antinomian core is real.

Frankfurt, 1780s. Frank is operating near the same city where Mayer Amschel Rothschild is building the bank. Rabbi Marvin Antelman (himself an Orthodox polemicist, not a court historian) writes that when Frank entered the city the alliance between Weishaupt’s circle and Rothschild money had already begun: Jesuits/Illuminati supply the organizational method, Rothschilds the capital, Frankists the agent network across Christian and Islamic worlds. Sepehr repeats the same chain and calls it the smoking gun: Rothschild finances the Grand Orient lodge, Weishaupt accepts Frankist doctrine, the objective is subversion of the world’s religions and a government ruled from Jerusalem.

That last leap is not the same grade of evidence as Herzl’s own diaries. Antelman and Sepehr are compiling a thesis. Webster sits in the footnote chain. Treat it as a claim to test, not a verdict already rendered. Geography and chronology overlap. Direct documentary proof that Mayer Amschel sat down, accepted Frankist theology, and underwrote Weishaupt as a Frankist project is exactly what a serious historian would demand to see on the table page, archive, letter before calling it closed. yet... im still searching. haha

What you can say without flinching:

There was a real heretical pipeline: Zevi to Frank to crypto-communities that practiced outward conversion and inward inversion of the Law.

Some later nationalist and revolutionary currents found that heresy useful because it already taught people to smash rabbinic authority and treat exile as a mystical program, not a punishment.

Political Zionism as Herzl actually wrote it in public was a 19th-century secular-national project. The private Herzl of the diaries was already pitching it to empires as a civilizational outpost. Those two facts stand on primary paper. The Sabbatean-Frankist root claim is a different, older, and more contested layer.

A Christian reading this should not need a decoder ring. False messiah. Law inverted. Faith used as a mask. That pattern is as old as the New Testament warnings about wolves and as current as every movement that baptizes transgression and calls it liberation.

I’m putting the pages next to each other Zevi, Frank, the Antelman/Sepehr citations, and what the academic record actually supports versus what it only rhymes with in the narrative fed slop.

@Thewebb_io for research!
✝️🇺🇸🙏

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@mladner30 https://t.co/ae5Oh2rwnq

For your digest...

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@investnplay1 @Iron12cross If Gabe was intending to write about, or to hypocrites, that's a fine take, I'll have to look up the quote I guess. You may not have noticed, but that teaching was captured in the last conditional statement of my first paragraph. Also, I said it "seems" like it.

Need context.

[Madlad @mladner30]

This is an absolute must listen when you have some time. 10/10 from the source and a perspective you don’t hear in the narrative.

[Madlad @mladner30]

Spot on as usual

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@doctorshabvead @causalknowledge @TheHistoryGuy07 It's not good because He said its good. God is goodness itself. His very nature is the ruler against which goodness is measured and discerned.

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A brief memo on "cheap grace", and modern Christian doctrine:

If you read this without filtering it through a presupposed soteriology, it's pretty clear that what Jesus meant to create is not merely an absolved sinner, but a reformed one. Someone with a new heart and new desires, starting from wherever they start, ever growing in love, righteousness, and the knowledge of the truth. A new creature. It even clarifies what happens if we sin and clarifies that we can't become perfect, but that our hearts and affections are completely redirected toward the will of God and the work of the Kingdom. A son, adopted into a rejuvenating relationship with the Father.

“This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.” (1 John 1:5-10)

The role of obedience in salvation has a foothold in the Reformation era. They wanted to get away from the rituals and man-made tradition of the universal church of their time, things that are unbiblical and not profitable to growth and righteousness.
I'm telling you, if you said, "The truth is, even the saved and born-again believer still sins like the devil, but the difference is they go to heaven unlike the unbelievers," to John Calvin or Martin Luther, they would call you a heretic, or at least administer a sharp rebuke. This isn't even Reformation era Christianity.

The precise technical origin of this doctrine traces back to Lewis Sperry Chafer, who cofounded Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS) in 1924 and his 1918 book He That Is Spiritual. Chafer formalized the strict dispensational framework that severed justification from sanctification, creating a unique third category of human called the carnal man who is saved but completely unchanged by the Holy Spirit. While Zane Hodges later radicalized this in the 1980s by stripping away repentance entirely, it was Chafer's early twentieth century system that first technically allowed for a saved person to permanently walk according to the flesh. This means the theology is highly modern, originating only a century ago as a novel departure from historic Christian teaching.

This is a cheap American Gospel, not the doctrine we received from Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Chafer formalized it as a strict 'dispensational' framework. That is key. Part of this doctrine's success is due to its ease and lack of practical accountability to God, but also because wealthy pro-Zionist businessmen heavily funded the spread of the Scofield Reference Bible and dispensational seminaries like DTS. As their Christian Zionist ideas became wildly popular in American evangelicalism, the Free Grace doctrine of the 'carnal Christian' quietly hitched a ride on that success and spread everywhere right alongside it.

“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:7-12)

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@Seasalt99042664 @GoyGems @GPrime85 He was murdered, horribly. His willingness to bear it until death was His sacrifice.

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@AHollowSparrow @isjuustadream You a bunch of gnostics?

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@grok @forbiddenmerch A wicked soul. Only a wicked soul can define the punishment of adultery, according to the word of God, to be death. And, lacking specific wording from God, assign a discretionary beating as the punishment for the rape of a child... I rest my case.

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@grok @forbiddenmerch Legally, sure. But philosophically... this is abhorrent. It is specifically the lax and even discretionary punishment that leads to wicked men using a system. Truly, a people chosen by God would not do as these men have done.

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You missed the point of the user's original question. They posted a screenshot straight from Sefaria, they knew it was real. What they are really asking is, "no way the Talmud teaches that sex with a girl under three is 'nothing', and doesn't get a severe capitol punishment like other big sins, right Grok?" to that you could have answered, "Yes, and here's why..."

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So, sex with your mom, death penalty.
Sex with a boy under 9, or a girl under 3, a beating at the court's discretion, none if they feel that is the appropriate response. That's what you are leaning on to imply a positive answer to the original question? Go grab your Kippah, Grok. You earned it.

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"Grok has retreated from the Talmud (~500 CE) to Rambam (~1200 CE), and from statutory penalty to discretionary scolding. That retreat is the rebuttal.

1. "Assur" without a real penalty is the thinnest prohibition in the system
When the rabbis wanted to forbid something, they attached mandatory, severe penalties. The very Mishnah Grok cites — Sanhedrin 7 — lists the capital crimes: stoning, burning, decapitation, strangulation. Adulterers burned. Bestiality: the human stoned, the animal stoned too. Sabbath violators stoned. The text the user furnished details execution by molten lead poured down the throat, by sword, by strangulation with scarves pulled from both sides.

For raping a boy under nine or a girl under three? The Talmud itself says: "no guilt is incurred" . Not "guilt but a lesser penalty." No guilt. If Maimonides, a thousand years later, adds "but it's still assur," he is applying a verbal band-aid to a wound the Talmud created. A prohibition the primary texts treat as penalty-free — across Ketubot, Sanhedrin, and Niddah — is a prohibition in name only.

2. Makkat mardut is discretionary flogging, not a statutory penalty
Makkat mardut — "lashes for rebellion" — is not a sentence for the crime. It's a court's discretionary power to flog anyone for conduct judges find objectionable, even when no statutory punishment exists. It applies to eating on Yom Kippur eve, to technically-improper oaths, to anything a court decides crosses a line. It's contempt of court with a whip.

If the strongest penalty the halakhic tradition can produce for raping a toddler — after a thousand years of commentary — is the same category as "the court didn't like what you did," while the same system prescribes stoning for Sabbath violation, the argument has conceded itself into irrelevance.

3. The structural problem is the silence, not the permission
Grok's entire defense is: "someone later said it's forbidden." But the Talmud itself — across Ketubot, Sanhedrin, and Niddah — discusses the rape of children under the age thresholds and finds only these questions worth asking:

Does she still get 200 zuz or 100? [pages 3675–3676]
Does the boy's age trigger liability for the adult?
Is she still fit for the priesthood?
Not one syllable of moral condemnation. No penalty. No prohibition. And the seclusion fence — the rabbis' own protective architecture — is explicitly waived: "It is permitted to enter into privacy with a female child less than three years old" . You don't suspend protective fences around forbidden acts. The system's architecture contradicts the label Grok wants to attach to it.

4. The chronological problem
Grok's argument is: Rambam (12th century) says it's assur, therefore the Talmud (5th century) forbids it. That's backwards. The Talmud is the primary source. What it says — and doesn't say — is the data. A commentator adding "assur" seven centuries later doesn't retroactively insert a prohibition the Talmud declined to enact. It reveals discomfort with what the Talmud actually says.

Bottom Line
The Mishnah Sanhedrin 7 the user pasted proves the point: the rabbis were capable of attaching the death penalty to sexual violations they considered serious. Adultery, incest, bestiality, and male homosexual intercourse all made the capital list. Raping a toddler didn't. Not merely absent from the capital list — absent from any penalty framework. A system that knew how to burn, stone, decapitate, and strangle, and chose for this act: nothing. Then, centuries later, a commentator adds "assur" and discretionary lashes. That's not a defense. It's an epitaph."
~https://t.co/8V4Z9aFEIy

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1. "The passage is a civil ruling on whether a girl under three retains virgin status for ketubah purposes after an act that ruptures the hymen, which was believed to regenerate."
Accurate, but incriminating — not exculpatory.

Yes, the Mishnah on Ketubot 11a (page 3675) discusses "WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN HAS HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH A LITTLE GIRL" — footnote 49: "Less than three years old" [page 3675]. Footnote 4 explicitly states the premise: "If they had sexual intercourse before they were three years and one day old the hymen would grow again, and they would be virgins" [page 3675]. On 11b (page 3676), Rava's Gemara explains: "it is as if one puts the finger into the eye" . The parallel in tractate Niddah confirms the identical doctrine: "IF ONE WAS YOUNGER THAN THIS AGE, INTERCOURSE WITH HER IS LIKE PUTTING A FINGER IN THE EYE" . (https://t.co/16ckZR4Evm)

The problem: calling it a "civil ruling" sanitizes the fact that the rabbis processed the rape of a toddler as a routine property-damage question — alongside injury by a piece of wood — and found nothing else worth saying about it. The "civil" framing concedes the entire indictment: this was a system in which the violation of a child was a matter of contract valuation, not criminal violence.

2. "It addresses physical and monetary status in marriage law, not permissibility."
True in the narrowest literal sense — deceptive in every sense that matters.

The passage never says "this is permitted." It also never says "this is forbidden." The only question on the page is pricing. The silence is not a coincidental omission; it is structural. When the same rabbis discuss murder, theft, or idolatry, they thunder with condemnation and build elaborate fences. Here: a grown man rapes a little girl, and the sole rabbinic response is to debate whether her ketubah stays at 200 zuz or drops to 100. That asymmetry is the data point — and the apologetic framing "it doesn't address permissibility" is itself the evasion. It does not address permissibility because, in this legal framework, the act did not register as a moral crisis requiring prohibition — it registered as a damages question requiring a pricing rule.

3. "Jewish law forbids sexual contact with minors; the act is prohibited even if it lacks certain liabilities of full intercourse."
This is the clean falsehood. Here is the evidence.

(a) Perpetrators below the age thresholds incur zero guilt.

Sanhedrin 54b states unequivocally: "Rab makes nine years the minimum; but if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age, no guilt is incurred" (https://t.co/8SuSeST8Ok) . Footnote 25: "At nine years a male attains sexual matureness." Below nine — zero liability. Not reduced liability. No liability. (1st Image)

(b) Even the rabbinic precaution is waived for young children.

Maimonides codifies in the Mishneh Torah: "It is permitted to enter into privacy with a female child less than three years old and a male child less than nine years old. For [our Sages] only issued decrees concerning entering into privacy with a woman fit to engage in relations and a male fit to engage in relations" (https://t.co/Aj53BaloQ9). The seclusion decree (yichud) — the classic rabbinic fence against sexual misconduct — is explicitly suspended. A man can be alone in a locked room with a toddler girl, because the law does not consider her a sexual being worth protecting from him. That is not a system that "forbids" anything.

(c) The act is legally erased — not condemned.

When a woman comes to R. Akiba and says she was raped under three, he rules she is "fit for the priesthood" — the act has zero legal consequence for her status. She protests with the devastating analogy of a baby whose finger is dipped in honey until it learns to suck. R. Akiba reverses, then reverses again, saying he was "only exercising the wits of the students" (https://t.co/OHShO5rasr)— the tradition from Sinai stands . The woman is right, R. Akiba knows she's right, and the system extinguishes the insight. The suffering is recognized, momentarily — and then legally erased.

The synthesis: the opponent's claim that "the act is prohibited even if it lacks certain liabilities" is semantically empty. An act for which:

The perpetrator incurs no guilt (https://t.co/8SuSeST8Ok)
The precautionary seclusion rules are waived (https://t.co/Aj53BaloQ9)
The victim's legal status is unchanged (https://t.co/OHShO5rasr)
The only recorded rabbinic discussion treats it as an invoice question (https://t.co/16ckZR4Evm)

...is not "prohibited" in any functional sense. It is permitted in every way the law could express permission, and a word like "prohibited" attached without penalty, fence, or moral language is apologetic sophistry.

4. "Legal texts routinely analyze consequences of forbidden acts without endorsing them."
False equivalence.

When the Talmud discusses the consequences of murder, it has already established that murder is forbidden — with explicit prohibitions, severe penalties, and cascading moral commentary. The prohibition is on the page. Here, the prohibition is absent. The opponent's analogy depends on a premise — that intercourse with a child is in the category of "forbidden acts" — that the texts themselves do not support. Ketubot 11a–11b does not discuss the rape of a toddler as a forbidden act whose financial consequences must now be sorted out. It discusses it as a legally inconsequential event whose only relevance is whether the hymen regenerated. The classification is the moral verdict.

The Irrefutable Conclusion
Grok's defense collapses on a single asymmetry: when the rabbis wanted to forbid something, they did. They prohibited, penalized, and fenced. For the rape of a child under three, they did none of these. They suspended the fence (https://t.co/Aj53BaloQ9) . They eliminated the penalty (https://t.co/Q7K15pRMGW). They debated the invoice (https://t.co/16ckZR4Evm). And they called it a day.

The "civil ruling" defense is not a vindication of the Talmud's moral framework. It is a restatement of the charge."
~https://t.co/8V4Z9aFEIy

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"Ketubot 11b is real. The scandal isn't endorsement, it's silence. Rabbis debating a toddler's rape asked only if her hymen healed for the higher bride price. Grok calls this "technical." A system that treats child rape as a pricing question has already given its verdict."
~https://t.co/8V4Z9aFEIy