LowCo

Destiny 2 PvP/PvE player | Triumph Farmer | Fighting Lion Enthusiast

Triumph Score in the year 2025? Impossible

Steam: LowCorpse | Bungie: LowCo#0907

[LowCo @Lowcorpse]

A Deep Dive into Destiny 2's Tiered Loot Problem

While many issues currently exist in the game from a lack of content to complaints about the portal, one of the core systems that have been most negatively impacted has been the loot system. Following the release of the Edge of Fate, the loot system as it pertains to weapons has been flipped on its head, promoting a failed leveling system to earn loot in a way that is contradictory to Destiny 2's prior loot chase. Now that the power leveling system has been routed, the loot chase is in a dangerous state of limbo where the game's replayability is at an all time low and is threatened to get even lower. The following analysis and criticisms are solely to attempt to alleviate the loot issues and direct Bungie towards a brighter future for loot, where the player feels both rewarded AND has a desire to continue to grind the game.

Current Issues that harm the weapons situation:
1- Power Leveling "Removal" for 550 Players
2- Existence of the New Gear Bonus
3- The Removal of Crafted/Enhanced Weapons
4- The [lack of] Perk Disparity Among Weapons
5- Common Tier 5 Loot Ruins the Loot Chase
6- The Definition of Difficulty and Skill-based Loot

Power Leveling "Removal" for 550 players:
The existence of power was meant to be a means of time gating the player from earning the best loot in the game. By removing the power reset without altering the loot chase, the replayability of activities takes a nose-dive as tier 5 loot can now be obtained within the first attempt of new content. With God rolls this easy to obtain, it does not matter how much new content is added to the game. Players will obtain their god rolls then stop playing that activity as their purpose for playing is now fulfilled. The Renegades portal system is likely to continue experiencing the pains and issues the Edge of Fate introduced, that being the idea that tiered gear must be directly tied to player power level in the portal.

Note: It is likely that similar to Kepler, the Renegades activity will be relatively self-contained, meaning that there should be a grind for the specific loot offered regardless of power. This may also be the case for the dungeon if it takes any inspiration from the current "feats" system from the Desert Perpetual Raid.

Existence of the New Gear Bonus:
The new gear bonus provides a small "carrot on a stick" for players to grind for the [already power crept] new weapons by adding some small level of bonus damage, to incentivize players to try out and utilize the new loot every season. While the purpose of the new gear bonus is to give a "flavor of the season", it has been twisted into a detrimental version that only hurts the general loot grind.

In its inception, the New Gear Bonus Granted:
- Higher bonus Damage based on Weapon Tier
- Only applied for the current Season's weapons

The current New Gear Bonus Grants:
- 5% bonus damage regardless of weapon tier
- Applies to all drops EoF and beyond

The new gear bonus no longer fits without power resets, where there is an near-indefinite extension to the "New" in New Gear Bonus. The only thing that the New Gear Bonus provides now is 5% additional damage to all EoF and beyond weapons, weapons that already power creep every pre-EoF weapon by multiple orders of magnitude. Outside of missing variants of weapon archetypes that have yet to receive a Tier 5 version, this completely removes the purpose of grinding for old weapons. Seasonal Mods should be incentive enough to use new weapons, therefore the New Gear Bonus should just be scrapped.

The Removal of Crafted/Enhanced Weapons Preface:
In its inception, crafted weapons were a mistake as they set a definitive endpoint for grinding an activity without offering an aspirational continuance for those that wanted it. Crafting allowed the player to craft their god roll after X amount of time but offered nothing more after the pattern was acquired. The "Adept" version of a crafted weapon, while having multiple perks, was often seen as "worse" because it lacked enhanced traits. The introduction of weapon enhancement made this issue disappear, transforming crafted weapons into the baseline of loot instead of the pinnacle of it.

The enhancement system solved the crafting issue by adding an additional avenue of grind other than the "checklist" that so many were accustomed to. It also created continuance beyond the definitive endpoint for crafted weapons by allowing better, adept, variants to exceed the power of their crafted counterparts. For example, If a player wanted a weapon close to that of a common day tier 5 they would have to:
- Display mastery in the raids' master challenges AFTER obtaining every crafting pattern
- Grind ritual playlists and reset them repeatedly to use earned engrams to focus multi-perk enhanceable variants.

The Removal of Crafted/Enhanced Weapons:
While the presence of tier 5 loot negates the need for the enhancement system, the player loses the personal feeling of investment in the weapon that crafting/enhancing offered. The player no longer can see the date of a weapon crafted/ enhanced, cannot level the gun up, and cannot apply mementos. Everything from the amount of currency it took to upgrade it, to the amount of time it took to acquire it in the first place is gone or reduced drastically. Objectively speaking, crafted weapons are equal to around a tier 2, which is weaker than the baseline for weapons nowadays. There is no harm in adding a dedicated endpoint for the casual player, especially when a crafted weapon isn't the pinnacle of that weapon's power.

By adding this system back, it enables the more casual audience to obtain their god roll via crafting while allowing the more hardcore audience to invest in their loot more personally. This also directly affects the vault and how obligated a player feels to store every roll instead of their personal god roll. A major overhaul to how loot should be earned is in the proposed solutions section at the bottom.

The presence of perk disparity gave the player a sense of direction; a chase towards the next best thing:

In Destiny 2, grinding for the best possible variant of a weapon is what players aim for [a trophy if you will]. The amount of effort and time may differentiate. The personal definition of a "god roll" may be unique. The tolerance towards playing a disliked activity may be at different levels. Regardless of every factor, offering an avenue to progress to a higher level of power needs to exist.

- While some players might be content with a crafted raid weapon, others could grind for a multi-perk enhanceable adept variant if they displayed enough mastery in the raid.
- If a player wanted an adept nightfall weapon with an additional perk, they knew they could attempt the harder variant of a nightfall to obtain it.
- If a player wanted more perks to drop on their ritual playlist weapons, they could reset their vendor reputation for a higher chance at it.
- If a PvP player was not content with a non-adept variant of a trials weapon, they could continue to build up a win streak in trials to earn their desired roll.

All of these avenues offered a basic level of loot, but offered a shinier "trophy" for the player to earn if they wanted it (regardless of power level in most cases). This trophy may require a lot more effort or time, and may not necessarily provide any intrinsic benefit beyond convenience, but it was there for the players that wanted it. Multi-perk weapons are seen as icing on the cake in most cases and were initially pretty liberally handed out (though it did get pretty egregious with salvations edge and a few other activities during the Final Shape). This "Disparity" no longer exists, as the most basic form of loot for a player at 550 will always have 3 perks in each column. The player is no longer grinding to get "better" loot, but rather grinding to get the best loot, which will likely be a god roll within the first few drops.

Common Tier 5 Loot Ruins the Loot Chase; The Illusion of the Loot Grind was Shattered:

The existence of Tier 5 weapons being the new normal removes the chase for improvement completely. The system of working towards the best version of a gun by acquiring more and more perks per column is gone. The only incentive to replay activities once a player is able to obtain tier 5s is to play until they get their desired god roll, which will happen extremely quickly with 3 perks per column. While crafted guns essentially guaranteed a god roll, they didn't offer the flexibility that Tier 5 weapons offer. Even enhanced weapons under the most time-consuming chases only got to about 85% of what a true Tier 5 is. The need to chase for an improvement to the same gun fundamentally doesn't work when the best version of the gun is this easily earnable. With Tiered loot still tied to power level and new tier 5 loot being this easily acquirable, Bungie is in an impossible situation as taking steps back would likely cause immeasurable outrage.

The Definition of Difficulty and Skill-based Loot Problem Preface:

Prior to Edge of Fate, Power was almost nonexistent but players continued to grind some of the hardest content for the best weapons in the game. The idea of "difficulty" did not stem from the existence of a power level but rather the activity delta, modifiers, and type of exclusive loot it offered. Power level was sidelined with the inclusion of fireteam power, allowing anyone to play and level of content assuming a single player was at the required power level. Additionally, not every activity was treated equal with its loot. While seasonal content offered crafted guns with an occasional multi-perk non-crafted variant, raids could offer all the way up to 3x multi-perk adept variants.

After the Edge of Fate, power was used as a barrier to entry for the highest tier of loot, but the definition of "difficulty" is now much more static. "Difficulty" in the current game is now defined with power in mind almost exclusively. Here is what else changed:
- Fireteam power is scraped, forcing a power grind for tiered loot while throwing away everything not tier 5 along the way.
- Every Portal activity is treated under the same power level umbrella, meaning the loot scales with power for every activity equally. I.e. There is only one Delta [Ultimate] where the player earns one tier [5] of loot.
- Modifiers are flexible, but often completely ignored as they are almost not needed whatsoever when at 550 since the higher power you are, the more relaxed the score requirements are.

Nowadays, is the Ultimate level of fireteam ops content truly harder than a GM nightfall? Did you as a player stack 10 different negative modifiers while still at 550? Did you feel gratified and ecstatic that you obtained that tier 5 piece of loot for the tenth time in a row by conquering that solo ops lost sector? The likely answer to all of these is no. We are playing easier content for better loot and that better loot is useful nowhere because there is nothing to chase beyond it. The portal itself is a 1 difficulty, 1 Loot tier environment; a poor attempt at rewarding the player based on power rather than Pre-EoF difficulty standards.

The Definition of Difficulty and Skill-based Loot Problem:

When creating loot that is based on difficulty, it needs to account for a multitude of factors outside of power level. Bungie has historically done this by having the stats of world drops be less than equivalent guns from endgame sources for example. The issue is that Tier 5 loot bypasses most of these minute changes due to the enhanced perks and dramatic stat bumps that Tier 5 weapons receive. Under no circumstances should the pinnacle version of a weapon get handed out without a serious investment. The "investment" that Bungie settled with ruined replayability and irrevocably spoiled the tiered loot system by being extremely generous. When grinding for the best loot, there are only 2 ways to reward players and both of these systems were incorporated prior to the Edge of Fate:

Option 1: Reward Loot based off of Skillful performance in the hardest content.
Option 2: Reward Loot based off of continual time investment into a SPECIFIC activity.

The following examples below demonstrate proper vs improper utilization of skill-based loot and time-based loot that either existed or currently exist in the game:

Example of proper skill-based loot:
Salvations Edge Normal: crafted weapons
Salvations Edge Master Challenge: 2x Multi-perk Adept Enhanced weapons
Salvations Edge Master Challenge + crafted patterns obtained: 3x Multi-perk Adept enhanced weapons (rivaling that of tier 5 loot).

In this example, the player is given incentive to play the normal raid due to weapon crafting patterns. This is the time gate the prevents players from reaching the highest tier of loot too quick. By proving adept mastery of the raid through acquiring the patterns, it opens up the avenue for the player to get even more rewarded by playing the master raid. By completing the challenges under a delta, with much higher stakes, the player gets rewarded with items that rival power of a Tier 5 weapon. While the player must jump through many hoops, the only way to get the best variant of that loot is to display mastery of that activity.

Note: A small change that would have made the system perfect would have been to lean harder into the crafted pattern requirement for multi-perk adept drops. I propose the Adept raid drops start with 1x perk per column and only scale with crafted pattern acquisition. While patterns did raise the chance of multi-perks, the baseline was 2x perks per column and the chance for 3x perks was already fairly generous without pattern requirement.

Example of improper skill-based loot:
After Achieving 550 power through generic play
Pinnacle Ops Onslaught: Tier 5 Mint
Pinnacle Ops The Whisper: Tier 5 Mint
Pinnacle Ops Dungeon Lair: Tier 5 Mint
Seasonal 550 Conquest: Tier 5 Mint

In this example, the player is not given an incentive to diversify their playtime into the "hardest" content that is a conquest, because they aren't rewarded any better for it. The means of earning a tier 5 Mint Retrograde does not require more skill in onslaught vs a conquest. Every activity mentioned is considered equal in terms of a "difficulty" perspective due to the power requirement and potential rewards being equal.

Example of improper skill-based loot:
Desert Perpetual : Tier 3 (normal pool)
Desert Perpetual 3+ Feat: Tier 4-5 (normal pool)
Desert Perpetual Epic 3+ Feat: Tier 4-5 (epic pool)

In this example, while the raid DOES reward loot based off of skill, this is still a step back from Pre-EoF weapon grinding because the player can earn loot quicker than they can "master" the activity. While the means of earning Tier 5 loot is good in theory, a player will likely get lucky and earn a Tier 5 weapon god rolls before they even pass a few clears then never enter the activity again. The investment needed Pre-EoF compared to now is now substantially less, especially now that the only limiting factor [the triumphs requirements] was removed. Simply put, while this system gives loot based on skill, the replayability factor falls off a cliff compared to Pre-EoF due to the lack of an activity investment (I.e. Salvations Edge Patterns Requirement for BIS Master Challenge Rewards).

Example of proper time-based loot:
Ritual Playlist multi-perk time investment
- In a prior TWAB in 2022, Bungie provided the code that allowed players to calculate the likelihood of attaining multi-perk variants of ritual playlist weapons. The code was as follows:

Left column: 1+(CLAMP((valor_reset_count+1)/2,0,(10*rand/2)%3))

Right column: 1+CLAMP((valor_reset_count)/2,0,(10*rand/3)%3)

Listed below is a table that represented the chance of obtaining multi-perk variants of a playlist weapon after 4 Resets (the maximum effective reset amount).
Odds Table: [Cumulative] Perk Column Combos - After 4 Resets

Resets = 4 R Perks --> 1 2 3
L Perks L / R % 40% 30% 30%
1 40% 100% 60% 30%
2 40% 60% 36% 18%
3 20% 20% 12% 6%

I.e. After 4 resets, you have a 6% chance of getting a weapon with EXACTLY 3 perks in BOTH the left and right columns. You have an 8% chance of getting a weapon with EXACTLY 3 perks in the LEFT column and 1 perk in the RIGHT column. (credit to U/Testifye on Reddit)

In this example, the player has the opportunity to achieve their god roll at any point regardless of power, but through constant time investment playing that activity they can potentially improve their god roll even more. This method used by Bungie with the vendors properly utilizes the idea of rewarding time spent without needing to dip into baring loot behind power. This strategy made it so that every drop earned through repeated play could always be an improvement and the theoretical ceiling of that specific weapons power was extremely rare. This method worked for the ritual playlists as they were intended to be the time sink and the casually fun grind. If you wanted more exclusive loot you were directed to their respective endgame variants (nightfalls, trials, sorry gambit).

Example of improper time-based loot:
The entirety of the current Power system. The grind towards the best variant of weapon is not satisfying to the player because the default means of time investment is not dedicated towards a specific activity but rather the game as a whole. There is currently no activity in the entirety of the Edge of Fate that requires a level of personal investment in order to obtain the best loot (Desert Perpetual's triumph system was close to being correct but community feedback slashed that system).

If a player wants to get a Mint Retrograde for example, they might grind the designated activity initially for a satisfactory roll then leave. They will then play the game, power grinding along the way, until they reach the necessary level to get the god roll Tier 5 Mint Retrograde. The player did not care about grinding the pinnacle ops for a tier 2, 3, or 4 because it wasn't tier 5. The player was not required to grind in that category to achieve the means of obtaining the best loot, only to be present in that activity once they achieved the arbitrary power number Bungie decided upon. Now that the player has their Tier 5 Mint, they will likely never go for another one because it is highly likely that it has everything the player wants. If this player wants to grind for anything else now, they are in the same position that they were for Mint: just access the activity that contains the desired loot and they will almost immediately reach a god roll.

Proposed Solutions to Tiered Loot and the Loot Problem:

This is all of my own opinion, where the proposals seek to continue to utilize the existing systems to the best of my ability while also adding what I feel are necessary changes. Some may find the below proposals as substantially too "elitist" or grindy, but as it stands, there is no grind to be had in this game and we cannot make a full 180 back to Pre-EoF.

1: Remove the innate ability to acquire Tier 5 loot from all sources except for Raids, Trials, and Conquests. Build on the ability for players to EVENTUALLY upgrade their loot to tier 5 in all other sources with enough investment.

Note: This would likely require a hard sunset of all current tier 5 loot either through removal of the new gear bonus or sunsetting them entirely. Bungie cannot afford to make a new tier of loot above tier 5 as we have already reached critical levels of power creep. We essentially have 3 unused tiers now, so we might as well use them.

Necessary Steps:
- Tier 5 weapons are now unobtainable (at base) outside of endgame content: High Feat raids, Trials of Osiris, and Conquests will be the only avenues for a 5% base chance at a drop. Rarity needs to return to Destiny.
- Tiered weapons 1-4 now have the ability to drop based on portal activity score. The score thresholds are dramatically reworked where only exceptional performance with substantial negative modifiers grants a chance at a tier 4 weapon to drop.
- Recreate the enhancement system that allows players to upgrade their weapon to Tier 5 over time with enough repeated drops of said weapon. This method allows the player to always have the opportunity of a god roll, but allows them to always chase for a better version during their grind. The example of how this would work is below:

Dismantle the weapon to add progress towards a tier upgrade. This upgrade is universal, cumulative, and progress is applicable to any future drops of the gun.

Dismantle Values:
Tier 1 dismantle value: 1
Tier 2 dismantle value: 2
Tier 3 dismantle value: 3
Tier 4 dismantle value: 4
Tier 5 dismantle value: 50 (Tier 5 Perk Reroll)

Tier 1 → Tier 2
Required Progress: (0/5)

Tier 2 → Tier 3
Required Progress: (0/15)
Unlocks ability to craft the weapon

Tier 3 → Tier 4
Required Progress: (0/25)

Tier 4 → Tier 5
Required Progress: (0/50)

Tier 5 → Reroll
Required Progress: (0/100)
Reroll allows choice of perk replacement in column 3 or 4. Doubles in cost after every replacement.

With the proposed system, the a player is able to earn themselves a god roll instantly with the opportunity to improve their drop with commitment over time. Adding the ability early on to craft the weapon gives the player the agency to make their own god roll (and a definitive endpoint for the casual player), but leaves room for further improvement as the crafted variant would be equal to a Tier 2 weapon. This means that if a player wants to utilize enhanced mods, barrels, mags, and have access to multi-perk rolls, adept performance or a time investment will be needed. This system would satisfy the more casual audience by adding the guaranteed god roll early on, but provides an aspirational chase for the more hardcore audience if they so choose.

2: Introduce a variety of exclusive loot to a variety of activities

As basic as this sounds, it is impossible for the portal to be properly utilized as it was envisioned without providing a purpose to play every activity. When the player is no longer focused on power grinding, they only have the loot to look forward to. Every activity must have its own exclusive loot drop per activity in order to incentivize the player to grind it. With the system created in point one, now every activity has its own investment track that a player can take. The sheer amount of investment paths now becomes an issue, since attempting to obtain a tier 5 version of every weapon would be an extraordinarily tall task. That is what the vendor reputation tracks would be for in proposal 3.

3: Return vendor reputation tracks and focusing that effectively utilize the portal subcategories and introduce activity exclusive customization rewards based on participation.

When a player is grinding an activity, the bare minimum goal is to reward the player in some capacity. The proposed rework to vendors gives the solo ops, fireteam ops, pinnacle ops, and crucible ops their own respective vendors that accumulate reputation as activities within said categories are completed. Vendors would allow focusing of specific exclusive weapons from any ops activity during the hunt for loot allowing the player to potentially double dip in their activity rewards. Resetting vendor reputation also will also allow non-endgame activities to have an increasing chance (1% per reset) at obtaining a tier 5 weapon drop (expansion based reputation reset). This vendor reputation and rewards system eases the grind towards obtaining a player's desired loot while always while allowing them to further target focus what they want to grind for. This keeps tier 5 weapons rare, but allows luck to shine.

While not every single solution is tangible (especially introducing more loot),with correct implementation, these changes would extend the loot grind but they would put player agency back front and center. The changes would still allow the player to grind for what they wanted in the activities of their choice. They would return the chase towards obtaining the best possible weapons while offering complete customization of tier 5 loot with enough investment. The system of tiered weapons as an idea is great, but the current system if unchanged will completely neuter any content that follows. A loot restructure is needed and it is needed fast.

Let me know what you all think if you got this far! Long read but I hope it sparks some conversation!

- LowCo

@Destiny2Team
@A_dmg04
@Aztecross

[dmg04 @A_dmg04]

Every time someone says the word “momentum” or “jamming” or “roadmap”

[c.o.c.k. @MuItimach]

DATTO HAS HAD THE SHORTEST RETIREMENT OF ALL TIME LETS GO #100MoreYearsOfDatto

[Destiny Bulletin @DestinyBulletn]

🚨BREAKING: Bungie confirms it is bringing back vaulted Destiny 2 campaigns, destinations, and raids.

The restored content will be available to all Destiny 2 players.

[IGN @IGN]

Bungie has said it is "absolutely not done with Destiny" just months after its controversial decision to end ongoing support for Destiny 2. https://t.co/FpiUscXzXC

[Paul Tassi @PaulTassi]

Monument of Triumph in the most important steam chart ever

[Geoff Keighley @geoffkeighley]

Bungie says "we are not done with Destiny."

[dmg04 @A_dmg04]

You did not go gentle into that good night.

[Jake Lucky @JakeSucky]

Bungie have announced the future of their studio starting with bringing Destiny back to the forefront

- Returning Destiny to "it's original promise"
- They understand the anger and frustration from the community
- Unvaulting Destiny 2 campaigns, destinations and raids
- Marathon was never intended to replace Destiny
- Marathon will expand past the extraction shooter genre

[CharlieIntel @charlieINTEL]

Bungie says all vaulted Destiny 2 content will soon be available to play again, and the studio is ‘not done with’ the Destiny franchise

[Paul Tassi @PaulTassi]

NEW VIDEO: Destiny is not dead as a series thanks to fan pushback and Bungie not giving up either. Unvaulting, more games, lots to talk about. And my YouTube channel is saved!

https://t.co/AdwpHULWpE

[Gothalion @Gothalion]

Bungie has a LONG road ahead of them. Best thing the Destiny community can do is be patient at this point.

[My name is Byf (Lore Daddy) @MyNameIsByf]

Holy shit. We actually fucking won!

They're un-vaulting content, and are making moves to create more Destiny in the future!

We actually did the thing! We made our own fate!

[Paul Tassi @PaulTassi]

honestly choking up a little

[dmg04 @A_dmg04]

A big update, from the heart, coming from our leaders.

Know you'll have a lot of questions after watching the video and reading the blog. Destiny. Marathon. Bungie.

Throw 'em our way.

Cheers to the future. Guardians make their own fate.

[Bungie @Bungie]

Today, we’re sharing more about the future of Bungie, including our plans for Destiny, Marathon, and how we’re changing the way we work.

Read more on https://t.co/ZkmLWmaQZr: https://t.co/QbDwADGinr

[Paul Tassi @PaulTassi]

Destiny lives

All content will be unvaulted. New games are coming in the future

Vocal player pushback and showing up for Monument of Triumph was a big factor in this happening

Have never seen a reversal quite like this. Incredible

[Dayto @Dayto_D2]

HAHAHAH NOWAY BRO

[Mæster Gekko @MGecko117]

“They killed D2 just to turn Marathon into D2 Lite” was supposed to be a meme

It isn’t anymore

Bungie spent years building Destiny 2 into the live-service ecosystem they wanted, gutted it, and is now desperately transplanting its organs into Marathon: permanent PvE, TDM, social spaces, firing range

Let’s hope this Frankensteined goose still has some golden eggs left inside, for Bungie’s own sake

[c.o.c.k. @MuItimach]

Last time they delayed an update we got an end of service announcement, this is Stockholm syndrome 101