@ZGRSchr They did not understand each other "perfectly" lol what is this delusion? The Hawrami speaker said smth in english which the the Kirdki speaker then understood
@Rashavandi Holy shit you are literally a jāsh!!! You are sucking off at the state of turkey because they oppress our Kurdish people and they occupy our land Kurdistan!!! You are an actual cuck and you are an actual Jāsh!!!
Yes in Gurani SK we also say /aw te/ but this has a different route actually
Min tyam
Tu tyay(t)
Aw te(t)
Īma tyaym
Īwa tyayn
Awān tyan
Tet is from tyaet where it simplified to tet. And the stem "tya-" is actually from tyā- which comes from diā- or dihā- of course. While the proper stem in NK and CK is -e- in SK it is -ā- you can see this on some other verbs as well (the original form is ā anyway it shifted to e in CNK).
E.g. in SK min zām means "I birth" while in CK it is min dazem and in NK az dizem.
In Ilami they say dyām for I come (they also say byām but in Gurani SK we say bām). In Laki they say mām (and bām).
Differences between the prepositions in Southern Kurdish
I have compared the prepositions between Gurani SK (my native dialect) and Kirmashani / Kallhurri SK and western Laki (Laki subdialects of Kirmashan) with each other and then there is also southern or Malikshahi or Ilami SK which has also to be considered.
English
Gurani SK
Kallhurri SK
Western Laki SK
Southern SK
CK
NK
---
I stay in Kirmashan
La Kirmāshān (ā) nīshim
Wa Kirmāshān nīshim
Wa Kirmāshāna manīshim
Da Kirmāshān dinīshim
La Kirmāshān (dā) danīshim
Az li Kirmāshāne (da) dinīshim
---
I came from Kirmashan
La Kirmāshān wa hātim
Wa Kirmāshān aw hātim
Wa Kirmāshān aw hātim
Zha Kirmāshān hātim
La Kirmāshān awa hātim
Az zhi Kirmāshāne va hātim
---
I go from Sarpell through Kirmāshān to Hamadān
La Sarpell wa wa Kirmāshān ā arrā Hamadān cim
Wa Sarpell aw wa Kirmāshān aw arrā Hamadān cim
Wa Sarpella aw wa Kirmāshāna aw arrā Hamadāna macim
(Didn't look it up, my own guess) Zha Sarpell wa Kirmāshān arrā Hamadān dicim
La Sarpell awa ba Kirmāshān dā bo Hamadān dacim.
Ji Sarpelle va di Kirmāshāne va dicim Hamadāne.
As you can see, there is quite some variation within SK. This could have different reasons. One could be archaic differentiation that built early on and one could be different kinds of influences.
For example Gurani SK mostly works like CK whereas southern SK has zha and da and while it reminds of NK, and southern SK has had an influx of NK and WK tribes, these should have existed in SK at one time of course too and Gurani SK could be the one that either shifted with CK or influenced CK or was influenced by CK. And then you have Kallhurri SK or Laki SK where the whole things works differently but it is rather evident that replacing la and zha with wa is a recent shift.
To my knowledge eastern Laki (in Luristan) also still has azh (like zha in southern SK and zhi in NK).
The spectacular thing here is actually that those SK subdialects that still use "da" as a preposition (and lost "la" from what I know) also use di- as a verbal prefix whereas those SK subdialects which lost da and only use la or wa they also don't use di- as a verbal prefix at least not in the affirmativ (the Kallhurri negative niya- comes from nida- whereas in Gurani SK it is nā-).
I don't do
nākam (Gurani)
niyakam (Kallhurri)
nimakam (Laki)
I do
kam
kam
makam
(Part 3)
For all I say and explain that Kurmanji or Northern Kurdish is the more innovative and less conservative dialect between NK and SK and possibly also between NK and CK; NK has two lexemo-grammatical features that are OUTSTANDING and EXTREMELY REMARKABLE, to the highest degree, among Western Iranic. It has one complete conservative feature more within SCNK too.
I will name and elaborate them with additional information in three individual posts.
PART 3:
Western Iranic languages are known for their grammatical feature of the Izāfa that exists in Southern Kurdish as -i, in Central Kurdish as -ī and in Persian as -i (-e in Iranian Persian). This is the most simple form of Izafa and is spread throughout the languages of the Kurds and in Iran.
Basically, it serves for syntactically connecting the noun in a semantic genitive or possessive function to another noun or an adjective to a noun.
In Eastern Kurdish there are two Izafa where one is for genitive/possession -ū while the other is for adjectives/attributes -ī. In Western Kurdish there is a more complicated Izafa system but it seems to derive out of innovation. Fusioning the now lost demonstrative pronouns with Izafa now lost Izafa -ū and -ī.
But in Northern Kurdish the Izāfa actually do a lot more. And they have genders and a plural form. AND THEY ARE ARCHAIC. The Izafa in NK are outstanding because they are not only conservative in form but they also retain their ORIGINAL MEANING OF RELATIVE PRONOUNS and thus still work the same as in Old Iranic or more precisely how they are attested in Old Persian.
The Izafa in NK are -e for masculine, -ā for feminine and -en for plural. And if detached from a word or following vowels they're -ye, -yā and -yen. And as relative pronouns they are found as ye, yā and yen too. And this goes back to Old Iranic hya, hyā and either hyānam or a reanalysed plural form with the typical marker -ān (something like hyān that then shifted to yān) which then shifted to yen.
Interestingly, in Southern Kurdish there is also the undefined pronoun yān which is used in a specific situation like this:
"Āzād u yān" which means "Azad and the others" or "Azad and co". I think this goes back to the relative pronoun yān and is cognatic to NK yen.
As SOLE DIALECT IN ALL OF WESTERN IRANIC it is Northern Kurdish that has kept a grammatical feature and form straight from Old Iranic despite ANY OTHER WI tongue having reduced it to a mere Izafa function without gender and number. Even in Middle Persian the Old Iranic hya- had shifted to -i and was a different morpheme. While Northern Kurdish kept it as relative pronoun but also added the Izafa function to it still keeping gender and number intact.
English
Kurmanji / Northern Kurdish
Old Persian
He who knows
Ye dizāna / Ye ku dizāna
Hya dānati
She who does
Yā dike
Hyā kunyawti
Those who give
Yen ku didin
Hyay dathanti
This does not exist in any other WI tongue.
For example SK:
Aw ki zānet
Aw ki kaet
Awān ki dan
Yārū ki zānet
Yārū ki kaet
Yārūgal ki dan
SK has yārū which is similar but which the etymology of I am not sure about and if its use case is really the same as that of NK ye, yā and yen. At least we know that the Izafa -i in SK derives from the relative pronoun hya- by losing genders and numbers. y(e/ā/en) > y > i
Persian
Ān ki mīdānad
Ān ki mīkunad
Āshān ki mīdahand
It is something that is so unexpected in New Iranic, even in Middle Iranic. So illogical to be actually true that it is beyond outstanding and remarkable!!! Fascinating to say the least!!!
And here is how the pronouns work as Izafa:
English
Northern Kurdish
Southern Kurdish
My son
My daughter
My children
Big man
Big men
Smart woman
Smart women
The big man
The man of the woman
Kure min
Dotā min
Zāroken min
Mere mazin
Meren mazin
Zhinā zhīr
Zhinen zhīr
Mere mazin
Mere zhine
Kurri min
Düati min
Minālli /Mināllgali / Mināllakāni min
Pīāgi gawra
Pīāgi / Pīāggali gawra
Zhini zhīr
Zhini / Zhingali zhīr
Pīāga gawraka
Pīāgakai zhinaka
Why would nīat shift to nīa though? There is no sign of at having existed in SK at least not in those subdialects meanwhile you have frozen forms with di- like dünim and terim (from diārim) and just to the south of Kallhurri you do have di- as prefix on every verb.
Both na and nadi are used for past tenses. nadi is for past continuous which is why it has the di added
Shexbizeni is Southern Kurdish like Kallhurri is. Nyast is just nī(n) + ast. The nī could be the same as nīn in NK which gives nīna for nyast otherwise it is simply a form that built in several Western Iranic tongues.
EK nīan (han)
persian nīst (hast)
I don't know what is up with ni- in NK but nā is likely the original form while forms like nima- and niya- (from nida-) are influenced by EK which also does that.
EK mikarū > nimakarū
SK (di)kam > nidakam (niyakam)
Ohh no don't misunderstand there are many reasons that Kurds have strong feelings agaist persians and it is definitely the fault of the persians/iranians. I mean from racism and discrimination to cultural genocide and massacres that the persians did and do against Kurds ... you have it all.
Kurds definitely have to get a separate and independent state of Kurdistan. Our history as Aryans and Western Iranics and even Iranians is a different matter that does not add or take away from our ethnic identity as Kurds and our many reasons to not want to be part of a state with people who disregard and mistreat us instead of owning their faults.
The Aryans are an interesting topic since their identity was, respectively is, very controversial for a long time in the West. Because of what happened in World War II. But also because of their historical achievements. The "Aryans" conquered India and Iran and established empires and religions... Not exactly how it went down, since there was a lot of mixing, but still, it is roughly a truth to be spoken.
And when it comes to the masses of Kurds you have basically three camps: The first fancies them and identifies with them as their ancestors ("Kurds were originally blond and blue-eyed..."). The second despises them with all their heart because they think to be Aryan means to be Iranian and it is an invention that the persians created to take over the Kurdish people as one of their own downplay Kurdish history and identity. And the third camp is rather indifferent, of course these people exist too. I would say there is a fourth camp, with people like me who take the Aryans as what it is and either admire the achievements that emerged by them and their descendants or also people who are not impressed but still take them for they are or were.
The thing Kurds have to understand is that our language and our semi-nomadic culture is a direct continuition of the language and nomadic culture of the Proto-Aryans from 4'000 years ago. Next to that we obviously have many Kurds who directly descend from the Proto-Aryans by paternal lineage.
The fascinating thing here is that the Kurds with a Y-DNA Haplogroup from the Proto-Aryans is basically, as a Kurd, still an Aryan because both language and culture kept its way unbroken and im the grand scheme of things the only thing that changed was the ethnic label that in the case of Kurds shifted from "Arya" to "Kurd" (likely with some intermediary stage with either "Mād" or "Krmāna" for example). And this holds true especially for the Kurds because the Kurds kept true to a semi-nomadic style of life and for the longest time as adventurous and warring wandering tribes even up to today in some cases.
You realise that the high divorce rate and the low rate of domestic violence against women are inversely proportional? They divorce because they are not beaten up for it.
The reason for divorcing are obviously the males. Denying the pressure and abuse that women experience is allowing the crime to happen by choice. Not to say women would make evrth correct but if women are beat and shamed for a lot more than men ever were then there is hardly any reasonable sense in blaming women for what is going.
Wannabe halfassed "men" need to get a hold of themselves
This is important to understand when it comes to all and any linguistic behaviour. Linguists have the mindset to never change or adjust the form of speech of a language but that is fallacious for many reasons as I explain in this post:
Yeah I definitely agree with you it doesnt even need to be endangered in my opinion. Normally linguists act like describing and recording languages is like observing animals and you mustnt change the speech in any way, form or capacity but this is audacious, arrogant and stupid. Languages have always been flexible and a form of expressing identity. Speakers often know what is authentic and what is not. When I asked an EK speaker for some EK sentences with prepositions he used ba a lot and I told him that is CK and what is with pay and all of a sudden he also corrected other sentences to EK which would have been leaning to CK otherwise because he actually knew what parts of his speech is EK and what is CK as soon as he thinks about it. And speakers definitely should be given the opportunity to think about it.
What use is it even to record SK filled with persian loans and forcisms and demand that the speaker should not adjust it to an actual SK form??? In that case you don't record SK but you are only willingly recording a broken and corrupted form of it and with that you cannot even use it dor linguistic comparison anymore because how are you going to compare SK with NK and CK and find out what Proto-SCNK could have sounded like if you record a very persianified form of SK??? Peak stupidity. And that is corraboration with the assimilation and disappearance of languages. Extremely arrogant, disrespectful, foolish and fallacious.
In the case of /wa/ it is because I was simply considering it to perhaps possibly be an authentic form (as I explain in my other comment) and not smth that developed in the last 40 years which is what I have been thinking all the time actually.
Yeah I definitely agree with you it doesnt even need to be endangered in my opinion. Normally linguists act like describing and recording languages is like observing animals and you mustnt change the speech in any way, form or capacity but this is audacious, arrogant and stupid. Languages have always been flexible and a form of expressing identity. Speakers often know what is authentic and what is not. When I asked an EK speaker for some EK sentences with prepositions he used ba a lot and I told him that is CK and what is with pay and all of a sudden he also corrected other sentences to EK which would have been leaning to CK otherwise because he actually knew what parts of his speech is EK and what is CK as soon as he thinks about it. And speakers definitely should be given the opportunity to think about it.
What use is it even to record SK filled with persian loans and forcisms and demand that the speaker should not adjust it to an actual SK form??? In that case you don't record SK but you are only willingly recording a broken and corrupted form of it and with that you cannot even use it dor linguistic comparison anymore because how are you going to compare SK with NK and CK and find out what Proto-SCNK could have sounded like if you record a very persianified form of SK??? Peak stupidity. And that is corraboration with the assimilation and disappearance of languages. Extremely arrogant, disrespectful, foolish and fallacious.
In the case of /wa/ it is because I was simply considering it to perhaps possibly be an authentic form (as I explain in my other comment) and not smth that developed in the last 40 years which is what I have been thinking all the time actually.
Are you sure it is new? What is your story? Did they not use /wa/ in the city of Kirmashan prior to the 1980s? I originally always thought itd be an innovative "mistake" too but then I realised that /wa/ or post verbal /a/ is used in a quite productive manner and thought maybe there is more to the preposition wa in SK being used that way.
@prsahm797 said some Zangana towns use it and as much as I know the Zangana must have spoken EK and at some unknown time switched to SK. I feel like the usage of /wa/ that way is similar to the usage of ci in Hawramani
Iirc:
Ci āka ana (cākana) = there
Ci āka awa (cākawa) = from there
Wa awra (wawra) = there
Wa awra aw (wawraw) = from there
In SK Gurani we say
dama pe = wa pe dam = I give him/her
dama le = la le dam = I hit him
bama bān (wa) = wa bān (wa) bam = I take (it) upstairs
la bān wa bam = I take from above
So postverbal /a/ is always used with verbs when it is /wa/ but it is also used when you combine the preposition /la/ with an enclitic pronoun and from what I have gathered pe from pad is not the same as /wa/ by etymology so I thought perhaps there is a deeper reason why /wa/ is used with /le/ too
It is all different in southern SK though
English
Gurani
Ilami
What do you want from me
Ca la lem/līm/lim twāyt
Ca zhām xwāzīt
I give him
Dama pe / Wa pe dam
Damae / Wae dam
<Damae> in Gurani strictly means <I give it> but in Ilami it can mean both <I give it> and <I give it to him>
I suspect either a retained dative meaning with the enclitic pronouns in Ilami (which exists in Gurani only if you say smth like <sardim a> = I am cold (It is cold to me) or actually the two forms <damae> having two etymological roots one being /dam/ + /e/ (I give it) with the infixed /a/ which existed in Middle Persian too as long ā and now in SK as short a. (dünimat = I see you e.g.) and the the other <damae> being actually /dam/ + /a/ + /e/ (I give to him) with the /a/ here being the postverbal preposition that otherwise always corresponds to /wa/.
But I haven't made up my mind about all this yet. Also I need to learn of all the areas and borders of SK varieties and what every distinctive feature is.
Itd be great if you could tell me more about the language of Kirmashan city before 1980. I know that it has been heavily persified and that very Kirmashani persification has affected the tongue of Guran area too. The Gurans who left Guran in 1980 when the war started speak a somewhat purer Kurdish than the people in Guran nowadays.
Hey man when is the last time you spoke with SK from the city of Kirmashan or from a bit more southern than Guran area and where you are?
Obviously your variety has the prepositions the same as we in Guran since Guran and Sinjawi are adjacent but my source of "Laki" is someone from Sinjawi too and he gave it me exactly the way I wrote it above. So I suppose you are from somewhere in Sinjawi which is closer to Guran or perhaps more northern than where he is from.
It is relatively well known that in Kirmashan they say e.g. "wa Kirmāshān bīm" instead of "la Kirmāshān bīm" which confused me too when I heard it the first few times.
This is not "wrong' because it is simply a linguistic shift that happened in some SK subdialects in Kirmashan and it could be influence by EK.
HAHAHAHAHAH rarely have I seen cope this bad and moronic
PA from PUnjab yes ...
Pakistan being from punjab, "afghania", kashmir, sindh??? and Balochistan is the biggest cope I have ever seen. It is bullshit. Pakistan just means "land of the pure" and it is not an indian (urdu is hindi) word.
Iranian goalkeeper Alireza Bayrānvand's tribe is described by H. C. Rawlinson in "Notes on a March from Zoháb..." (1839) as having migrated from the Mosul region to their current settlement in the 18th century, together with the Bājalān.
(Part 2)
For all I say and explain that Kurmanji or Northern Kurdish is the more innovative and less conservative dialect between NK and SK and possibly also between NK and CK; NK has two lexemo-grammatical features that are OUTSTANDING and EXTREMELY REMARKABLE, to the highest degree, among Western Iranic. It has one complete conservative feature more within SCNK too.
I will name and elaborate them with additional information in three individual posts.
PART 2:
(Feel free to ask for elaborations)
The personal pronouns that exist in Northern Kurdish are a complete set of proper and distinct subject and object pronouns that are most likely etymologically intact and not innovated.
Subject - Object
Az - Min
Tu - Ta
Aw - Wī, We or Awī, Awe
Am - Ma
Hūn - Wa
Aw - Wān or Awān
- Az and Min
/Az/ derives from Old Iranic nominative /Azam/ from Proto-Iranic *Adzam from Proto-Aryan *Agham from Proto-Indo-European *Egho(m)
/Min/ derives from Old Iranic genitive /Mana/ and is possibly cognatic to English my/mine and german /mein/ which are also genitive.
- Tu and Ta
/Tu/ derives from Old Iranic nominative *Tuam / *Twam from PIE *tu. It has shifted to /ti/ in WK.
/Ta/ derives from early Middle Iranic *taw from Old Iranic genitive /tawa/. *Taw shifted to /to/ in CK, WK, EK but for example Balochi has retained it as /taw/. Persid and NK did the sound shift of postvocalic w > h which led to taw > tah > ta in NK.
- Aw and Wī, We
/Aw/ derives from Proto-Iranic *Hau/*Haw. /Awī/ and /Awe/ are /Aw/ with the respective masculine and feminine object case markers which is typical for the third person pronoun to be applied to nouns too.
NK /av/ is from earlier /am/, as in CK, from Middle Iranic /im/ and Old Iranic /ima/ under the sound shift postvocalic m > v.
- Am and Ma
Before we talk about /am/, I have to explain /ma/. /Ma/ is from Old Iranic genitive /ahmāxam/ (based on Old Persian) and earlier *ahmākam* (based on Awistan). In CK it is /ema/ and in SK /īma/. In Middle Persian there was /amāh/ for it which is the perfect root for SCNK īma/ema/ma.
ahmākam > ahmāxam > ahmāh > amā
amāh > ama > ma
and
amā > emā > ema > īma
or
amā > ama > ema > īma
NK /am/ is most likely from the instrumental *ahmā . The instrumental is more likely because the second person plural is also based on the instrumental.
- Hūn and Wa
(Elaboration in the comments)
/Hūn/ ultimately derives MOST LIKELY from Old Iranic instrumental *hishmā/*hushmā which is RECONSTRUCTED BY ME and based on Awistan /xshmā/ BUT ONLY if the form *hushmā did exist. If not, it could be from the genitive *yūshmākam under special sound shifts which could apply to a pronoun used in high frequency.
(xshmā) hushmā > hushna > huhna > huhn > hūn, hun, hon
And in Laki:
hushmā > huhma > huma ( > hima), hūma (over homa)
Otherwise
yūshmākam > yūshmāxam > yūshmāh > ushmā > hushmā > etc
NK has /wa/ while the Badini subdialect has /hawa/ and CK /ewa/ and SK /īwa/. Wikiferheng reconstructs smth in the line of ishmā (as in Middle Persian) > ihmā > ahmā > amā > awā > awa > wa, hawa, ewa, īwa
With typical SCNK postvocalic m > w / v but it is very unlikely because NK always has m > v and the pronoun is /wa/ never /va/.
So no, I much rather suggest the dual *yawākam (based on Awistan) with:
yawākam > yawāxam > yawāh
And then mysteriously as with potentially *yūshmāxam:
yawāh > awāh > awā > wa, hawa, ewa, īwa
- Aw and wān
/Aw/ is again the normal and archaic third person plural without any marker since NK doesn't mark the subject plural which is am archaism from the loss of it in the late Old Iranic stage.
/Wān/ is from /awān/ and simply /aw/ with the typical object plural marker.
The very same goes for /av/ and /vān/.
And this is fascinating because most or all other Western Iranic languages and dialects have lost this conservative and authentic distinction between subject and object case for the pronouns even if otherwise more conservative than NK. Truly, a great archaism of NK!
A comparison to MY constructed St SCNK and MY reconstructed Proto-SCNK
Legend:
English
SK
CK
NK
St SCNK
Proto-SCNK
((1))
I see you
(Min) tu dünim / (min) dünimat
(Min) to dabīnim / (min) datbīnim
Az ta dibīnim
(Az) taw wīnim / (Az) wīnimat
(Az) taw wīnam / (Az) wīnamāt
((And))
I am seeing you
-
-
-
(Az) taw diwīnim / (Az) ditwīnim
(Az) taw di wīnam / (Az) dit wīnam
((2))
I have done this deed
(Min) ī kāra kirdimas
(Min) am kārma kirdūa
Min av kār kirīa
(Min) im kārma kirdigast
(Min/Man) im kārim / kārma kirdig ast
((And))
I have been doing this deed
(Min) ī kāra kirdyāmas
(Min) am kārma dakirdūa
Min av kār dikirīa
(Min) im kārma dikirdigdāst
(Min/Man) im kārim / kārma di kirdig dā ast
((3))
I want to do that
(Min) twām awa bikam
(Min) damawet awa bikam
Az dixwāzim wī bikim
(Az) wāetim/xwāzim awīa bikarim/bikam
(Az) abātim/xwāzim awī/awīa aw karim
(or)
(Az) abātim/xwāzim awī/awīa kard)
((And))
I am wanting to do that
-
-
-
(Az) dimwāet / dixwāzim awīa bikarim
(Az) di abātim / di xwāzim awī/awīa aw karim / kard
((4))
What is this and where did it come from?
Iyā ca as u la kūra wa hāt?
Ama cī a ū la kwe awa hāt?
Av ci ya ū zhi ku hāt?
Ima ci ast u/ū zha/azh ko(ra) (wa) hāt / hāwt?
Im/Ima ci ast ud azh kora awa hāwt / hāgt?
((And))
... where was it coming from?
... la kūra wa hātyā?
... la kwe awa dahāt?
... zhi ku dihāt?
...zha kora wa dihātidā?
...azh kora awa di hāwt/hāgt dā?
((5))
Does it work?
Būt?
Dabet?
Diba?
Bot?
Bot / Byot / Byawat?
((And))
Is it working?
-
-
-
Dibot?
Di bot/byot/byawat?
((6))
His mother and his sisters
dāllike u xwayshkakāne
(or)
dālliki aw u xwayshkakāni aw
Dāykī ū xushkakānī
(or)
dāykī aw u xushkakānī aw
Dāykā wī ū xwishken / xwahen wī
dāyikay/dādikay u xwahāy / xwahishkāy
(or)
dāyikay/dādikay u xwahakāy / xwahishkakāy
(or)
dāyikyā/dādikyā awī u xwahāyān / xwahishkāyān awī
(or)
dāyikyā/dādikyā awī u xwahakāyān/xwahishkakāyān awī)
dāyakih / dāyakhe / dāyakay ud xwaharih/xwaharhe/xwaharay
(or)
dāyak yā awī ud xwahar yān awī
Do you want a glimpse at Proto-SCNK, as reconstructed by me, which would be of the early Middle Iranic stage most likely?
Where is my crowd at? Holla at me!
Hushma cī xwāzīd aw shnapīd / shnaft?