Tango Zulu

In medio mortis, vivimus______________ “In the midst of death, we live.”

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

Welcome to all new follows. Let me share the heart of everything I believe - the gospel, the message by which God exposes our ruin, reveals His grace, and brings us into life.

God created us for His glory, to bear His image and walk in fellowship with Him. Scripture says, “The heavens declare the glory of God” and mankind was made to reflect that glory (Ps 19; Gen 1). Yet we turned from Him. In Adam “all sinned” (Rom 5), and in our own lives we confirm that rebellion. “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom 3), and the wages of that sin is death (Rom 6). We do not simply need guidance or improvement. Scripture calls us “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph 2), blind to God’s beauty (2 Cor 4), and unable to submit to His law (Rom 8).

But before we ever drew breath, God had set His love upon a people. He “chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1), not because of foreseen merit or decision, but “according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace” (Eph 1). Out of that eternal love the Father sent His Son.

Jesus Christ, true God and true man (John 1; Col 2), entered the world He made. He lived the life of perfect obedience we failed to live - fulfilling the law (Matt 5) and always doing what pleased the Father (John 8). On the cross, He became our substitute. “The Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all” (Isa 53). “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” (Gal 3). He died, was buried, and on the third day rose with unconquerable life (1 Cor 15). His resurrection is the Father’s declaration that the payment is complete (Rom 4), justice is satisfied (Rom 3), and death has been overthrown (Heb 2).

But how does all of this become ours? Scripture is clear: the benefits of Christ’s work are applied to us by the Holy Spirit. We are not born into life by nature or effort. Jesus says, “You must be born again” (John 3). And this new birth is not the act of the human will but of God (John 1). The Spirit awakens the dead heart, shines into the darkness, and gives the sight we never had (2 Cor 4). He grants repentance (Acts 11) and faith (Phil 1), uniting us to Christ so that His life becomes our life, His righteousness our righteousness (2 Cor 5), His death our death to sin (Rom 6), and His resurrection our entrance into newness of life (Rom 6).

This union with Christ is the hinge of the gospel’s application. By the Spirit we are joined to Him, and in that union we receive everything: justification by His righteousness (Rom 5), adoption as beloved sons and daughters (Gal 4), sanctifying power to kill sin (Rom 8), perseverance upheld by His intercession (Heb 7), and the promise of glorification when He returns (Rom 8). Salvation does not rise from us; it flows from God’s grace from beginning to end (Eph 2).

This is the good news. The Kingdom of God has broken into the world in Christ. He is risen (Luke 24). He reigns (1 Cor 15). He will return in glory to judge the living and the dead (Acts 17), gather His people, and make all things new (Rev 21).

You are not promised tomorrow. “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart” (Heb 3). Turn from your sins. Cast yourself wholly on the crucified and risen Christ. Trust in His finished work. He alone saves.

“For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” (Rom 10).
In Him there is full forgiveness (Eph 1), true righteousness (Rom 3), and everlasting life (John 3) that death itself cannot touch.

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

You are objecting to a definition of secondary causation I do not hold. A secondary cause is not an autonomous “cause of its own.” It is a real, dependent cause under God’s primary causation.

You say, “they meant evil, and they did it,” while insisting their willing and acting caused nothing. That is precisely what needs explaining. If their act had no causal efficacy whatsoever, in what sense did they do it rather than merely have it occur through them?

And “God caused it” is not the wording of Genesis 50:20 either. That is your theological description of the text. So the issue is not whether we may use terms beyond the verse’s exact vocabulary. We both do. The issue is whether the terms accurately describe what Scripture says.

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

P1. Whatever Scripture affirms is true.

P2. Scripture affirms divine determination, voluntary human action, and moral responsibility in the same events (Gen 50:20, Acts 2:23, 4:27-28).

C. Therefore, these are compatible. Deny P1 or P2 or concede compatibilism.

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

Funny how Jesus held men accountable for what was written, not for failing to consult an allegedly infallible bureaucracy.

[Johnny B. Goode ☧🇻🇦 @88mph121]

Scripture is not “infallible,” it’s inerrant

It needs an infallible teacher to say what it means so that it is no corrupted

You are not that infallible teacher

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

You deny secondary causation, then say, “They meant evil, and they did it. God caused it.” If “they did it” means their willing and acting actually brought about the event, you have just described secondary causation while rejecting the term.

And yes, I am using words not found verbatim in Scripture. That becomes necessary when Scripture is being disputed, categories are being collapsed, and terms need to be defined precisely. The question is not if my terminology appears word for word in the text, but if it accurately describes what the text affirms.

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

Then I think I understand the disagreement. You are denying secondary causation altogether… But if God alone causes the act, the intention, and the outcome, in what meaningful causal sense did Joseph’s brothers themselves commit the act? Scripture does not merely say the act occurred through them, it predicates the intending and doing of them.

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

@HwsEleutheroi @DrFrankTurek @Lets_Talk_HC Since Muslims and Mormons are basically the same, we can just chalk @Lets_Talk_HC actions up to taqiyya

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

THE COUNCIL OF BOB, GRAND ECUMENICAL SESSION OF ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY EMERGENCY

The Council has been summoned because a young Roman apologist has apparently discovered that Christianity itself is being held together by the Pope.

Not Christ.

Not the Resurrection.

Not the apostolic Gospel.

Not the blood of the covenant.

The Pope.

Ladies and gentlemen, clear the archives. Burn the manuscripts. Someone get Paul in here for a rewrite. Apparently 1 Corinthians 15 should have read:

“If the Roman Pontiff possesses universal jurisdiction, your faith is not in vain.”

What an extraordinary development.

Christ may rise from the dead, fulfill the Scriptures, conquer death, ascend into heaven, pour out the Spirit, and establish His Church, but if somebody successfully disproves Vatican claims about the bishop of Rome

EVERYBODY OUT. CHRISTIANITY HAS BEEN CANCELLED.

Pack up Nicaea.

Close Bethlehem.

Board up Golgotha.

Someone remove the stone from the empty tomb and put Jesus back inside because Pop Cultured has discovered a jurisdictional technicality.

The Council particularly admires the argument’s exquisite construction:

Rome is necessary to Christianity because Roman Catholicism says Rome is necessary to Christianity.

Absolutely devastating.

One wonders why the apostles wasted so much time proclaiming Christ crucified and risen when they could simply have announced:

“Believe in the Papacy, and thou shalt be saved.”

Peter at Pentecost really buried the lede.

And imagine the embarrassment of the ancient Christians who died confessing Christ without realizing that the entire religion was actually balanced on a future theory of Roman ecclesiastical jurisdiction.

But perhaps the finest feature of this argument is that it accidentally admits something fascinating:

If Christianity stands or falls with the Papacy, then the Papacy had better be demonstrable with terrifying clarity from the apostolic deposit.

So go ahead.

Show us.

Not “Peter existed.”

Not “Peter was important.”

Not “Rome was important.”

Not “the early Church had bishops.”

Show us the proposition you just made load bearing:

Christ established a perpetual Roman office possessing universal jurisdiction over every Christian, and Christianity is false if that office does not exist.

Chapter and verse will be fine.

The Council will wait beneath the enormous banner reading:

YOU MADE THE CLAIM.

Until then, congratulations on constructing the theological equivalent of standing on a chair, declaring the chair indispensable to gravity, and threatening to jump if anyone disagrees.

DECRETUM CONCILII:

The Gospel does not collapse when Rome loses an argument.

Rome collapses when Rome makes itself the Gospel.

The Council of Bob has spoken.

Someone ring a bell dramatically.

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

THE COUNCIL OF BOB, GRAND ECUMENICAL SESSION OF ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY EMERGENCY

The Council has been summoned because a young Roman apologist has apparently discovered that Christianity itself is being held together by the Pope.

Not Christ.

Not the Resurrection.

Not the apostolic Gospel.

Not the blood of the covenant.

The Pope.

Ladies and gentlemen, clear the archives. Burn the manuscripts. Someone get Paul in here for a rewrite. Apparently 1 Corinthians 15 should have read:

“If the Roman Pontiff possesses universal jurisdiction, your faith is not in vain.”

What an extraordinary development.

Christ may rise from the dead, fulfill the Scriptures, conquer death, ascend into heaven, pour out the Spirit, and establish His Church, but if somebody successfully disproves Vatican claims about the bishop of Rome

EVERYBODY OUT. CHRISTIANITY HAS BEEN CANCELLED.

Pack up Nicaea.

Close Bethlehem.

Board up Golgotha.

Someone remove the stone from the empty tomb and put Jesus back inside because Pop Cultured has discovered a jurisdictional technicality.

The Council particularly admires the argument’s exquisite construction:

Rome is necessary to Christianity because Roman Catholicism says Rome is necessary to Christianity.

Absolutely devastating.

One wonders why the apostles wasted so much time proclaiming Christ crucified and risen when they could simply have announced:

“Believe in the Papacy, and thou shalt be saved.”

Peter at Pentecost really buried the lede.

And imagine the embarrassment of the ancient Christians who died confessing Christ without realizing that the entire religion was actually balanced on a future theory of Roman ecclesiastical jurisdiction.

But perhaps the finest feature of this argument is that it accidentally admits something fascinating:

If Christianity stands or falls with the Papacy, then the Papacy had better be demonstrable with terrifying clarity from the apostolic deposit.

So go ahead.

Show us.

Not “Peter existed.”

Not “Peter was important.”

Not “Rome was important.”

Not “the early Church had bishops.”

Show us the proposition you just made load bearing:

Christ established a perpetual Roman office possessing universal jurisdiction over every Christian, and Christianity is false if that office does not exist.

Chapter and verse will be fine.

The Council will wait beneath the enormous banner reading:

YOU MADE THE CLAIM.

Until then, congratulations on constructing the theological equivalent of standing on a chair, declaring the chair indispensable to gravity, and threatening to jump if anyone disagrees.

DECRETUM CONCILII:

The Gospel does not collapse when Rome loses an argument.

Rome collapses when Rome makes itself the Gospel.

The Council of Bob has spoken.

Someone ring a bell dramatically.

[Pop Cultured🇻🇦 @iam_shwa]

If the Papacy is false, Christianity is false

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

The Calvinist says, “You are guilty because you willingly reject God; if you believe, God gets all the credit.”

Leighton replies, “So God caused your unbelief and you’re the victim.”

No. You did not expose Calvinism. You read it backwards.

[Soteriology101 🩸 @Soteriology101]

No.

Calvinism’s implications offend Christians because it paints God as the cause of unbelief and unbelievers as victims.

T - God decreed all can’t believe from birth,
U - unless He chose them before creation,
L - paid for them,
I - and irresistibly caused them to believe
P - for their lifetime.

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

I think our disagreement is prior to the word “voluntary.” I am not claiming the brothers’ wills self determined their intentions. I mean that the act genuinely proceeded from their own intention, “you meant evil against me” (Gen 50:20). God’s determination of that intention does not make their willing unreal. Scripture can attribute the same event to God’s determination and to the creature’s own willing act. That is precisely what secondary causation names. P2 does not require libertarian self determination, it requires genuine creaturely agency, which the text explicitly affirms.

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

I think Genesis 50:20 supplies the point in substance, “you meant evil against me.” To mean an act toward an end is to act intentionally, from one’s own will. So “voluntary” is just a label for what the text describes. P2 therefore stands unless that inference itself can be shown to be false.

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

As simple as I can state it:

The elect are not justified in eternity past, they are foreknown, or “foreloved,” by God. Christ died in order to redeem His people, a remnant from among the corrupt lump of humanity. God’s elect are sought and saved by His Spirit through His special work of regeneration, the new creation, through His chosen means, the “foolishness” of preaching, the proclamation of the Good News, the Gospel. So that when the Gospel is preached to the elect, the Lord opens their heart, their heart of stone is replaced with a heart of flesh, and they hear the voice of their Shepherd, and by their own liberated will cry, “Abba, Father.” With the gift of eyes to see and ears to hear, and hearts filled with the knowledge of the love with which He has loved them, they turn and follow their Savior, to serve Him. They are not justified because they were elect in eternity past, nor simply because Christ died for them, but when, through the preaching of the Gospel, the Spirit makes them alive, they hear the voice of their Shepherd, believe in Christ, and through faith receive Him and the righteousness that is theirs in Him.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in him.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:3-14

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.

-2 Timothy 1:8-9

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.

-Romans 8:28-30

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

Known to God from eternity are all His works. 

-Acts 15:18

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 

-Matthew 6:7-8

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”  

-Jeremiah 1:4-5

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

Whoever digs a pit will fall into it, and a stone will come back on him who starts it rolling.

-Proverbs 26:27

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

@Soteriology101 Then you concede the point. His inability is his corruption. You still have not explained why corruption excuses the corrupt.

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

On the basis that hating God is blameworthy

[Soteriology101 🩸 @Soteriology101]

Calvinists,

If people cannot want God unless God causes them to, on what rational and moral basis are they blameworthy for not wanting God?

[Tango Zulu @Tango_Zulu]

@Soteriology101 Because his will is corrupt. You’re trying to turn the sinner’s corruption into his excuse.