The Su 30 question- it keeps coming up repeatedly.
The common refrain : We need numbers (desperately). We have the lines, the shops, the labs and the knowhow. We have trained maintainers and trained flight crew. Infra exist to absorb more. TTPs have matured over the years. It makes eminent sense to just build more.
Three options are offered (or a variation of these)
- Upgrade existing to Super Sukhoi std
- Build new in existing config
- Build new in super sukhoi conig
There are certain complexities that confront the planners, and let me summarize them in brief.
1. Upgrade existing
Typical TTL is 6000 hrs / 40 years.
HAL indicated upgrade would take 6 years (for the first ac), 12 years for the 84th (as per the existing proposal). Past experience suggest that this would extend to 20 years or more. Even after life extn offered by the upgrade, we would not get more than 10 years per airframe, after spending close to 800-900 Crore per aircraft. The plan was to identify airframes build after 2010, however that window is closing fast as we dither on the approvals. For the record, the plan for upgrading 84 Su 30 was prepared at Air Hq in 2008, forwarded to MoD in 2009, received AON in Nov 2023. That’s where it is now.
2. Build new in existing config
At nearly 1100 Crores a piece this is not relay a cost-effective option. Building an aircraft, just to keep a line ‘warm’ is not the most ideal way to go. There are other challenges too: The budgetary pie is limited and shrinking in dollar terms. There isn’t enough to cover existing liabilities and emerging needs.
Maintenance-heavy AL-31FP engines, low MTBF, a long history of issues: premature overhauls, oil leaks, bearing failures, low oil pressure, and metal contamination. It leads to low flight line availability.
The Su-30MKI is a large, non-stealthy heavy fighter with a significant RCS.
The tyranny of time. 200 would likely take 20 years and more.
Heavy reliance on Russia for engines, critical spares, and support carries risks (geopolitical tensions, sanctions exposure, or disruptions as seen post-Ukraine). Even with increasing indigenous content, key dependencies remain.
Future air-warfare is shifting toward stealth, networked operations, long-range precision strikes, and stand-off weapons. Mass quantities of non-stealth heavies have a clear role, however may be less survivable or efficient than a mix emphasizing lower-observable platforms (AMCA) plus drones/loyal wingmen (Ghatak, Swift).
3. Build new in super Sukhoi config
This is the most viable option. Su 30 has lot of real estate and can carry a lot of equipment besides enormous qty of fuel. With domestic radar, sensors EW, weapons and network, this would allow us the max width in terms of incorporating local tech and weapons. A no TV Al 31 could possibly give us less headache in maint terms and improve MTBF, however since the IP resides with Russians it would be akin to developing a new engine. In terms of cost, it would be upward of 2000 crore per aircraft, however a large part of that amount would flow back into our economy- so not really a bad deal. New build gives us the full 40 years, plus later extensions, for exploitation.
However, the limitations mentioned above- RCS, MTBF, survivability, relevance in new age of air warfare etc remains.
How many are too many.
In my opinion we should build ONLY six Sqns of new airframes that would be delivered in next 15 years (best case) and serve us for next 50.
One sqn of electronic attack version, like the Growler, packed with local electronics. Networked and equipped to blind the enemy.
Two Sqns of maritime strike version. Unlike the land environment, esp in our AoR, the maritime environment is more permeable. The adversary can not pack so many sensors as they could against our land borders. Large RCS is less of a trouble- load/fuel carrying capacity is a major plus. P8/ LEO pick up the threat- Su 30 delivers death and destruction far from our shores. These could even be based in island territories. There should be able to operate with our CCA/ MuMT.
Three Sqn for the routine roles- albeit with better sensor/ weapon suite. AD, GA, strategic strike etc.
The future of airpower is attritable AI in a networked environment. It would be served by manned unmanned teams.
With the limited budget at our disposal, conflicting and urgent demands, we should not fall prey to the seductive logic of producing more- just because we can.
@defenceglobe@_Stalinkabaap_ Q: “Mk2 hasn’t even flown yet.”
A: “But Rafale and Meteor!”
Every response is just whataboutery and irrelevant comparisons. Peak eggspret BS.
It is interesting to see that by one majestic sweep of hand people write off the entire IAF.
Import pasand, incompetent, incapable...moniker abound.
They don't make a distinction- everyone in IAF - serving and served, is useless as per them.
Pray do tell, if you guys really believe so, then irrespective of the aircraft offered (domestic or imported), the force would still be useless. You should instead rally with GoI to disband the IAF and hand over all the jets to you worthies.
The IAF would magically transform into a perfect force equipped entirely of domestic eqpt, staffed entirely with certified desh bhakt X warriors.
To be clear...
One doesn't need to serve to offer intelligent comments on matters military. However, to say those who serve or served are incapable of objective opinion is going too far.
X warriors must ponder- why hasn't any fighter pilot, serving or retired, come to the defense of HAL. Does all the air combat gyan only resides in anon sqn on X.
Those who had to strap a jet into their back and those who had to send young officers into the harm's way will seek a capability that allows them a fighting chance on winning and returning.
Finger pointing comes easy to those who never had to place their finger on the trigger.
Atmanirbharta is a worthy goal. We must pursue it with all our energy. However, it can not come after hollowing out our airpower. Delays bring strategic vulnerabilities.
Rafale v Mk2 is a separate debate. I have written/spoken many times that Mk2 wl be Rafale plus. Unfortunately Rafale is visible, Mk2 is not.
Most people commenting negatively in an almost industrial fashion- responding within seconds- on predictable pattern- are bad faith actors. They have no interest in self reliance. Their only aim is to undermine the confidence of the forces, dent public trust in the military and create confusion in the pol leadership.
There are some people who make critical yet reasoned arguments. Those must be heard, suggestions taken on record and applied where feasible. However, in the din of organised kolaveri these voices get drowned.
M3M.
To the Muppets out there who claim intellectual superiority, and would soon desend in herds :
You could have walked this path- you did not- I did.
You could have worn the flight suit and proven yourself better- you did not- I did.
You could have been a warrior- you chose not to.
Now you sit in a corner, raging and bad mouthing air force the entire day, riding on cheap data and bad intentions.
Well, news for you.
No one gives a flying fcuk.
"गाड़ी न्युए चालेगी"
@ForeignOfficePk Apart from the fact that Shimla agreement supersedes any UNSC resolution, it has become very clear that Pakistan hates the name of their own chaddi-banyan operation and is trying to rewrite its name. I guess they finally caught on to the joke.
@Masood__Khan Secondly, a Pakistani lecturing anyone about Kashmir is the worst joke. First ask the Pak Army and establishment to stop killing Kashmiris in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, end the blackouts and allow independent foreign media access. The hypocrisy is astounding.
@Masood__Khan Such BS. For starters UNSC is not relevant here after the Shimla Agreement which commits settlement of all differences and unresolved disputes, including Jammu and Kashmir, through direct bilateral negotiations without third-party or international intervention.
#HafizSaeed’s Muridke headquarters was hit by woman fighter pilot during Op #Sindoor
She was flying a Su 30 MKI which fires both Rampage and BrahMos air-to-ground missiles, used during the 87-hour conflict.
https://t.co/wIyM22kHBd
@amarnath1696 Ill-informed take. 4/4.5-gen fighters still form the bulk of the world’s fighter fleets. US itself is buying 267 new F-15EXs.
Nobody is “moving” to 6th/7th gen. There isn’t even a universally accepted definition for them. Air forces need a mix of capability, numbers, and cost.
I’ve said this once, I’ll say it again.
Rolls Royce wants to develop an engine complex in India, Safran wants to develop an engine in India.
We need industrial set up and we should become an MRO hub for major RR engines.
RR also has a better pedigree in engine manufacturing.
JUST IN | Reliance Industries and Rolls-Royce announce strategic intent to partner and develop India's indigenous combat engine for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programme.
A social media myth that is floating around in India is that Rafale fighters are being bought by a stupid and dumb import pasand establishment to counter 1000 odd Chinese 5th gen jets. Even the people who spread this story know that this is a phenomenally stupid rumour. Such gossip from SM, MSM and even some veteran handles is only to smear our own forces, especially the IAF.
It requires some knowledge of the history of Indian aircraft design and production and only half a brain to understand that purchases are only to keep some form of Air Force flying while our own aircraft industry is incapable of keeping its own promises of producing a 4th gen aircraft in any meaningful numbers.
It is completely ridiculous to have heard serial promises of delivering jets from 2022 onwards, now pushed to 2027.
Now all we need is for the same enthusiastic social media rumour mongers to prod Gen Z into saying IAF is useless and they import aircraft so that childern of IAF officers get foreign university placements.
Hail our patriotic social media 🫡🫡🫡