Kimball Manner

I think it would be good if we took the role of intellectual opposition from Satan and did it ourselves.

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

Im all for a mechanical approach. But we really just can’t switch over entirely - we don’t have near enough data, or the analytic power either. Mystical is still necessary - for everyone you included (absent nihilism of course).

You may not feel you need God to justify your ethical system, and fine. But my point is that the majority of people do. Or at least some spiritual frameworks.

Choosing Jesus as your ethical judge (in your case abstractly obviously) will grant you access to a potential unity that a strictly tribal view won’t.
No it won’t grant you a Christian church membership, but you don’t even want that.

I argue that basically everyone can choose Jesus as ethical king and still retain their current ethical system.
Whether they see him as God or as prophet, or as future king, or abstract philosopher would be a tribal matter.
The ambiguity of the gospel writers identities allows for a myriad of different lens to view historical Jesus.
But ethically, we can unite.

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

Yes, see you don’t have the certainty he does and your speech (or writing) reflects a more intellectually honest view.

I’ve no problem with this approach. And I’d argue that a God agnostic but still Christian position is valid and needed.

The first question on that claim of course is “why Jesus?” To which I’d respond that it’s the most practical.
No, Jesus is not the only person to teach that type of ethics, but he is the most well known and accepted. So accepting Jesus as the functional head ethical figure (tho not the sole one) is going to produce the most unity. By far. Basically every religion out there has the frameworks to accept him as an ethical head/judge.

But apart from that, im interested in what you said that you don’t find it personally useful. Do you mean the framing that Jesus is God? Or the God tool itself?

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

@CouchDewd @JoelMCurzon This approach is much more reasonable. Tho I don’t think the pattern youre noticing is unique to the religious in any way. Just human.

But the OP makes a claim that Jesus isn’t God as if it’s dogma. Where is that certainty coming from is my question?

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

@BenBird53920553 I have no issue with your veneration of her, but no. Mary needed saving by her Son just as much as you and I.

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

@BenBird53920553 Literally everyone except God

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

@KimballCall @HudsonHawk25738 Or when God affirmed it literally right after it happened in v22 🤦‍♂️

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

@TomMcMurtryNZ @Salt_n_Smoke Fair enough, and to be clear I do think he is in rebellion against God’s will in all this.
His greatest victory against God might just be his own fall.

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

@StallionCornell Gatekeeping does seem to be a major aim in here yes.
Though I do think it’s important to not lump the genuinely concerned together with the snoodily concerned

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

Not exactly, my view was that he would want Christ on the cross regardless of whether he knew. Why? Because he just wants to make people miserable, and that was his greatest opportunity to make God Himself miserable.
Hes aware he can’t win in anything and so trying to beat God isn’t in the calculus. It’s more abt trying to get away with the most amount of inflicted misery.

And yes, in the end, I’ll think we’ll look upon him and see a very small miserable creature

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

@TomMcMurtryNZ @Salt_n_Smoke Like I said, I’m not opposed to him not knowing the details, I jsut don’t think it would have made a difference (as youre saying too it appears).

Do you think Satan knows that the last sentence you wrote is true?

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

Ah yes I see. I agree hes in prideful rebellion to God, but not in a way in which he has any illusions of winning. That would make him low IQ.

And yes I think his primary goal is to inflict unjust suffering, be it spiritual or temporal.
If anything, hes trying to prove to us that he was right in the pre mortal life and the suffering makes this whole thing not worth it.
But really in his heart he just wants to hurt.

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

@TomMcMurtryNZ @Salt_n_Smoke Do you think Satan thinks he can beat God?

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

@TomMcMurtryNZ @Salt_n_Smoke I feel like there’s some kind of communication block here.
I agree with basically everything you said.

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

There is no such thing as purely temporal suffering. All things have a spiritual component - which is actually the more fundamental.

I’d agree with you that he plans, schemes even.
But in the end he knows that not one soul is left to hell for eternity, except the sons of perdition. And he knows he can’t change that.

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

Once again, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of Satan.
All he cares abt is making people miserable like himself. He is not under the illusion that he can win, and he hates that.
He is aware that his attempted disruptions only further the plan. And he hates that, but does it because he loves to cause misery. It’s the only thing he has left.
And one day even that will be taken from him, and he knows and hates that too.

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

Yep on everything except that that verse doesnt refer to Satan.

Look man, I haven’t even said for sure that Satan knew the exact details of the cross and how it would go down. Maybe not.
But I’m saying that even if he did, he wouldn’t be able to stop himself because he loves to inflict suffering. It is his nature

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

@TomMcMurtryNZ @Salt_n_Smoke If you can’t look at the cross and feel equal parts horrified and awe-inspired, then you need to take another look brother.
The contradiction is the point.

[Kimball Manner @bridledserpent]

If your faith is not ultimately rooted in the Holy Spirit alone, it is doomed.

Whatever proofs you’ve “discovered”, whatever logical house of cards you’ve constructed, or whatever your sectarian testimony, one day Satan will come and smash it all to little bits.

And you will be left with nothing except your personal experience with God.