@StefanMolyneux Yes, of course: we are easily programmed because of our fallen state.
Yet disregarding it as superstition will lead us back to slavery.
@kalezelden Daniel Patrick Moynihan was sounding an extreme warning about their well being when black out-of-wedlock births approached 25%.
Now it's 77%!
And for all, it's 40%.
Abortion is downstream from the collapse of marriage.
We simply have to restore the moral order.
I get the argument, but I don’t think we should gloss over the difference between “apart from Christ” and “apart from faith in Christ” or any mention of explicit vs implicit faith. It’s a shame that we argue past each other when the teachings of the Church are truly so beautiful and satisfying.
I do the single tsk. And the stink eye. And single little grunts. Often escalates in that order. But with six little miscreants we often need to jump to the “no.” Good reminder to start with the lowest level of intervention necessary: the subtle tsk.
Not gonna lie though: sometimes it’s all out drill sargeant.
They first accuse you of assuming parental or spousal authority over women. When you clarify that you are offering fraternal correction, not issuing a command, they shift to dismissing the man’s judgment itself.
When you point out that this amounts to denying that good men can reasonably discern what constitutes immodest dress, they return to the authority objection.
So the argument moves endlessly back and forth: “You have no authority over me,” followed by, “Your judgment is invalid anyway.”
Ultimately, it reduces to: “Don’t tell me what to do with my body.”
That is feminism.
The irony is that, along their line of reasoning, they are grasping at authority they do not have by dictating what men may or may not regard as a red flag.
@melodymlyons Fraternal correction is understood as requested by Christ. It is not a claim of fatherly/ spousal authority.
And it's unfair to accuse people of spiritual manipulation simply because they choose to not pursue a prospect further if they discern obstinance as a red flag.
@VitaUxoris I get what you’re saying, but it does sort of drift into semantics at some point. Because things revealed in conversation as you’re wanting to get to know someone inevitably will become green or red flags. And that’s a normal and appropriate thing.
@Di_bear Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; for you have had five husbands, and he whom you now have is not your husband; this you said truly.”
All within the first minutes of meeting her. The nerve!
@jdflynn “Let me state the obvious about one sense of the term modesty so as to trivialize the sense actually being discussed.”
We develop codes of conduct and social mores for things like *modest dress* so as to help form virtuous habits.
I could think of a few scenarios:
1) the immodest dress might not show up till the 4th date, you might otherwise like her by that point.
2) you might have been dating for months and and only recently formed your own convictions about modesty.
Isn’t it worth discerning her convictions before abruptly moving on? Some women just haven’t given modesty much deep thought.
@VitaUxoris If you otherwise like her, why not give her a chance to correct before moving on? It’s part of getting to know someone. Some women just haven’t thought deeply about modesty because they’ve never been challenged.
I don’t get these people. Any charitable reading of @JoshuaTCharles’s thought experiment should assume the woman is objectively immodestly dressed and that the correction/request would be done with tact. They’re loosing their minds because the most chauvinist scenario plays out in their heads, the feminist script inveterate in their psyches. And/or they just don’t believe there’s any objectivity in modesty. And/or they’ve applied the seamless garment approach to modesty.
@Crystalisives Literally the Bible: “Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands as to the Lord. For a husband has authority over his wife”
Which Christian man has rejected “Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it”?