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about 2 years ago

#101WhyWeLeft Islam #Reason9 You can read this better here: https://t.co/Fr32RYxOlW Reason 9: Men Not Required to Marry Female Slaves for Sex If some people have found a way to ‘live’ with the idea of taking women as war bounty, they did so on the pretence that these women would have been married off to the fighters and, therefore, it is a humane way of saving these women’s lives. And while some fighters may have married their captives, this was not necessary, as the story of Mary the Coptic demonstrates. Mary the Coptic – Sometimes referred to as Mariam or Maria the Coptic, is reported to be a slave girl given to the Prophet as a gift along with her sister Sirin by the then Christian Governor of Alexandria. You can read more about her story here: https://t.co/rmtnrbRKfQ We know that in Islam, men are not required to marry their slaves to sleep with them from the Prophet and Mary the Coptic’s story. And again, this change seems to have come to please one person before it becomes a common Islamic practice. The background to this story is found in the Quran. Quran 66:1: "O Prophet! Why do you prohibit ˹yourself˺ from what Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful." This verse may seem innocent at first until you read the context from Ibn Khatir (the most trusted Islamic scholar), and it changes everything; "Hafsa the mother of believers (wife of Muhammad) visited her father one day. When the Prophet came home and did not see her in the house (so he) sent to the Mary the Coptic and (mated with her) in the house of Hafsa. Hafsa walked in on them, she said: “O Messenger of God, do not do this in my house!” On that day he (Prophet) told her: «it is forbidden to do so do not tell anyone». So Hafsa went to Aisha and told her so Allah Almighty in his book announced (O Prophet, did not deny what God has permitted you) to say (and the benefit of believers) ordered to wipe his sin and review the nation. And the story is mentioned by Hasan al-Basri. Sunan Bayhaqi. Book Disconnect and Divorce (AlKhalaa Wa Talaaq). It is further narrated in Tafsir Ibn Kathir: https://t.co/ioyeC08VoE (It is in Arabic, select your browser to translate) This is the kind of story you cannot just make it up. Especially if someone had made it up, they would have been killed for suggesting something sick and untoward the behaviour of a Prophet! But clearly this story did trouble Muslims scholars. We see attempts to cover it, hide, or make up a different story to it. Here you will see how far and to what extent Islamic websites will go to to hide the truth about this and other stories. The above story in Arabic clearly narrates Mary the Coptic as being the background story to this verse as presented to the Arab audience with no further apologies. Now on how the same website, for Western audiences, a completely different story: https://t.co/mpGFxvhkjR Notice, it is the same source of https://t.co/ojTl8gS7CC, English translation talks about ‘smelly honey’ being the reason why the Prophet being told off by Hafza, completely different story that to be honest sounds like the made-up story. If this is the Quran, what other sources do we have? Well, the Hadith talks about sex with slaves, look out for the term referred to these women. Jabir bin `Abdullah was heard to say: ““We used to sell our slave women and the mothers of our children (Umahat Awaldina) when the Prophet (PBUH) was still living among us, and we did not see anything wrong with that.” Grade: Sahih (Darussalam) https://t.co/bIWDpxjIjc An important term here to understand is the term "Mothers' of our Children", which does not equate to wives. The term refers to female slaves who get pregnant outside wedlock and have a child for their masters. They are not called wives; they are called “mothers of our sons” (Umahat Awaldina). Why? Because the Prophet had his son Ibrahim with Mary the Coptic outside wedlock. Yes, there is a dispute by Muslim scholars if we can or cannot call Mary the Coptic his wife! The sources conflict if the Prophet called Mary the Coptic his wife. She was just the “mother of his son” Ibrahim. And because Ibrahim died at a young age anyway, Mary became less relevant in Islam. There are no records of the marriage before Mary got pregnant, but some scholars argue that by virtue of her giving birth, she automatically became his wife. Sounds like an excuse because they are embarrassed by the fact that our prophet had a son out of wedlock. And this Hadith, which is also authentic, shows the common practice amongst Muslims that sees these women as sub-humans that they can sell and buy. This hadith proves that slaves did not become wives by virtue of giving birth. In fact, the Hadith shows that it was common to ‘sell’ these mothers and “...we did not see anything wrong with that”. Issue 9.1. Doesn’t this story demonstrate that the author of the Quran was making things up as they faced different challenges? Specifically, the Prophet engaged in adultery when supposedly there was no ruling permitting sex with slaves. Only when his wives ‘caught him’ having sex with a slave – now Allah comes in for the rescue! Issue 9.2. How can someone call Allah an all-merciful and the Prophet an example for us all to follow when we see highly questionable behaviour that has little morality and demonstrates a lack of mercy? This is yet another example of a religion created by a man for men with little regards to women. -------- Apologists Response: Issue 9.1. Multiple other tafsirs reject this interpretation of verse 66:1, and the Hadith you refer to is not necessarily reliable as it comes as a secondary source. The Tafsir by Ma’arif, Taskirul, Al Wasit, Al Qurtubi, Al Sadi, and Al Baghawti refer to the story of the strong smelly honey being the subject of the verse. In their Tafsirs, the Prophet liked to drink honey mixed with herb called Maghafir. The wives had forbidden the Prophet from drinking that honey because it smelled terrible. When the Prophet was told off and promised not to drink that honey again, the verse came down to say, ‘not to forbid yourself what Allah has made permissible.’ So, you are taking this out of context. As for the Hadith, the hadith is a secondary source here. It does not say the Prophet permitted it. There is no direct quote from the Prophet on this matter. Our response: If you continue reading the Tafsirs by Al Tabari, Al Qurtubi, Al Sadi, and Al Baghawti, you will find them presenting the story of the sexual affair with Mary the Coptic as well being the main explanations for this verse. Many of these tafsirs provide multiple reasons for a verse but tend to focus on the ‘most likely’ interpretation. What is common between Ibn Kathir, Al Tabari, Al Qurtubi, Al-Sadi, and Al Baghawti is that they are the earliest Tafsirs and closest to the time of the Prophet. This indicates that they are more accurate accounts and less likely to be excuses that came later. While the Hadith does not quote the Prophet, the Hadith states a fact that took place at the time of the Prophet, and this is Sahih (authentic). Part of the criteria for authenticating the Hadith is not just by the chain of narrators but if it conflicts with the Quran. This is clearly not seen as in conflict with the Quran. Issue 9.2: The issue of morality here is being raised out of context. At best, the interpretation of the verse is disputed and the authenticity of the Hadith as a standalone is insufficient evidence. There is evidence that the Prophet considered Mary, the Coptic, his wife, and that debunks much of the arguments against the Prophet. Our Response: There are other sources that address the treatment of women sex slaves that show they were no more than objects won and lost during wars, sold and bought in the market. We have them mentioned in the Quran at least 14 times: [4:23-24];[16:71]; [23:5-6]; [24: 31-33-58]; [30:28]; [33:50- 52 -55]; [70:27-30], and Hadith at least 15 times: https://t.co/HZtM27DmPS We say ‘at least’ because the terms used for owning women as war bounty slaves varied over time from “what your right hand possessed”, what your “Faith possessed”, to terminologies such as Al Sabi and Sabayah. Final Thoughts: The owning of women for any purpose, be that for marriage or otherwise, is a disgusting idea and demonstrates Islam as a man-made religion for men who want to exploit women. Islamists who accept the practice and try to justify it as a historical need have failed to respond to how they would have reacted if the Americans killed all Talban men and their boys who had pubic hair and taken Talban women as war bounty sex slaves on the sunnah of the Prophet? How would they have reacted if the Kurdish fighters killed all the IS men and boys and taken the IS women and children as war bounty slaves? Would they call it humane to see the IS women and daughters being sold in the open market? Only then can you see their faces change and realise their excuses are just made up, and there is never a real humane justification for this. The excuse of ‘smelly honey’ is pathetic for another reason. Imagine the creator of the universe telling the Prophet in His eternal book that they should eat garlic if he wants! Is this really the eternal book of humanity? Is this book set in stone before time in heaven that starts a chapter with – don't listen to your wives, eat smelly food! This may have fooled 7th-century desert dwellers, but it is not going to fool us.

ExMuslimMemes's tweet photo. #101WhyWeLeft Islam #Reason9
You can read this better here:
https://t.co/Fr32RYxOlW

Reason 9: Men Not Required to Marry Female Slaves for Sex
If some people have found a way to ‘live’ with the idea of taking women as war bounty, they did so on the pretence that these women would have been married off to the fighters and, therefore, it is a humane way of saving these women’s lives. And while some fighters may have married their captives, this was not necessary, as the story of Mary the Coptic demonstrates.

Mary the Coptic – Sometimes referred to as Mariam or Maria the Coptic, is reported to be a slave girl given to the Prophet as a gift along with her sister Sirin by the then Christian Governor of Alexandria. You can read more about her story here: https://t.co/rmtnrbRKfQ

We know that in Islam, men are not required to marry their slaves to sleep with them from the Prophet and Mary the Coptic’s story. And again, this change seems to have come to please one person before it becomes a common Islamic practice. The background to this story is found in the Quran.

Quran 66:1:
"O Prophet! Why do you prohibit ˹yourself˺ from what Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

This verse may seem innocent at first until you read the context from Ibn Khatir (the most trusted Islamic scholar), and it changes everything;

"Hafsa the mother of believers (wife of Muhammad) visited her father one day. When the Prophet came home and did not see her in the house (so he) sent to the Mary the Coptic and (mated with her) in the house of Hafsa. Hafsa walked in on them, she said: “O Messenger of God, do not do this in my house!”
On that day he (Prophet) told her: «it is forbidden to do so do not tell anyone». So Hafsa went to Aisha and told her so Allah Almighty in his book announced (O Prophet, did not deny what God has permitted you) to say (and the benefit of believers) ordered to wipe his sin and review the nation. And the story is mentioned by Hasan al-Basri.
Sunan Bayhaqi. Book Disconnect and Divorce (AlKhalaa Wa Talaaq).
It is further narrated in Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
https://t.co/ioyeC08VoE (It is in Arabic, select your browser to translate)
This is the kind of story you cannot just make it up. Especially if someone had made it up, they would have been killed for suggesting something sick and untoward the behaviour of a Prophet! But clearly this story did trouble Muslims scholars. We see attempts to cover it, hide, or make up a different story to it.
Here you will see how far and to what extent Islamic websites will go to to hide the truth about this and other stories. The above story in Arabic clearly narrates Mary the Coptic as being the background story to this verse as presented to the Arab audience with no further apologies. Now on how the same website, for Western audiences, a completely different story:
https://t.co/mpGFxvhkjR
Notice, it is the same source of https://t.co/ojTl8gS7CC, English translation talks about ‘smelly honey’ being the reason why the Prophet being told off by Hafza, completely different story that to be honest sounds like the made-up story.
If this is the Quran, what other sources do we have? Well, the Hadith talks about sex with slaves, look out for the term referred to these women.
Jabir bin `Abdullah was heard to say:

““We used to sell our slave women and the mothers of our children (Umahat Awaldina) when the Prophet (PBUH) was still living among us, and we did not see anything wrong with that.”
Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

https://t.co/bIWDpxjIjc

An important term here to understand is the term "Mothers' of our Children", which does not equate to wives. The term refers to female slaves who get pregnant outside wedlock and have a child for their masters. They are not called wives; they are called “mothers of our sons” (Umahat Awaldina). Why? Because the Prophet had his son Ibrahim with Mary the Coptic outside wedlock. Yes, there is a dispute by Muslim scholars if we can or cannot call Mary the Coptic his wife! The sources conflict if the Prophet called Mary the Coptic his wife. She was just the “mother of his son” Ibrahim. And because Ibrahim died at a young age anyway, Mary became less relevant in Islam. There are no records of the marriage before Mary got pregnant, but some scholars argue that by virtue of her giving birth, she automatically became his wife. Sounds like an excuse because they are embarrassed by the fact that our prophet had a son out of wedlock. And this Hadith, which is also authentic, shows the common practice amongst Muslims that sees these women as sub-humans that they can sell and buy. This hadith proves that slaves did not become wives by virtue of giving birth. In fact, the Hadith shows that it was common to ‘sell’ these mothers and “...we did not see anything wrong with that”.

Issue 9.1. Doesn’t this story demonstrate that the author of the Quran was making things up as they faced different challenges? Specifically, the Prophet engaged in adultery when supposedly there was no ruling permitting sex with slaves. Only when his wives ‘caught him’ having sex with a slave – now Allah comes in for the rescue!

Issue 9.2. How can someone call Allah an all-merciful and the Prophet an example for us all to follow when we see highly questionable behaviour that has little morality and demonstrates a lack of mercy? This is yet another example of a religion created by a man for men with little regards to women.

--------

Apologists Response:

Issue 9.1. Multiple other tafsirs reject this interpretation of verse 66:1, and the Hadith you refer to is not necessarily reliable as it comes as a secondary source. The Tafsir by Ma’arif, Taskirul, Al Wasit, Al Qurtubi, Al Sadi, and Al Baghawti refer to the story of the strong smelly honey being the subject of the verse. In their Tafsirs, the Prophet liked to drink honey mixed with herb called Maghafir. The wives had forbidden the Prophet from drinking that honey because it smelled terrible. When the Prophet was told off and promised not to drink that honey again, the verse came down to say, ‘not to forbid yourself what Allah has made permissible.’ So, you are taking this out of context. As for the Hadith, the hadith is a secondary source here. It does not say the Prophet permitted it. There is no direct quote from the Prophet on this matter.

Our response:

If you continue reading the Tafsirs by Al Tabari, Al Qurtubi, Al Sadi, and Al Baghawti, you will find them presenting the story of the sexual affair with Mary the Coptic as well being the main explanations for this verse. Many of these tafsirs provide multiple reasons for a verse but tend to focus on the ‘most likely’ interpretation. What is common between Ibn Kathir, Al Tabari, Al Qurtubi, Al-Sadi, and Al Baghawti is that they are the earliest Tafsirs and closest to the time of the Prophet. This indicates that they are more accurate accounts and less likely to be excuses that came later. While the Hadith does not quote the Prophet, the Hadith states a fact that took place at the time of the Prophet, and this is Sahih (authentic). Part of the criteria for authenticating the Hadith is not just by the chain of narrators but if it conflicts with the Quran. This is clearly not seen as in conflict with the Quran.

Issue 9.2: The issue of morality here is being raised out of context. At best, the interpretation of the verse is disputed and the authenticity of the Hadith as a standalone is insufficient evidence. There is evidence that the Prophet considered Mary, the Coptic, his wife, and that debunks much of the arguments against the Prophet.

Our Response:

There are other sources that address the treatment of women sex slaves that show they were no more than objects won and lost during wars, sold and bought in the market. We have them mentioned in the Quran at least 14 times: [4:23-24];[16:71]; [23:5-6]; [24: 31-33-58]; [30:28]; [33:50- 52 -55]; [70:27-30], and Hadith at least 15 times:

https://t.co/HZtM27DmPS

We say ‘at least’ because the terms used for owning women as war bounty slaves varied over time from “what your right hand possessed”, what your “Faith possessed”, to terminologies such as Al Sabi and Sabayah.

Final Thoughts:

The owning of women for any purpose, be that for marriage or otherwise, is a disgusting idea and demonstrates Islam as a man-made religion for men who want to exploit women. Islamists who accept the practice and try to justify it as a historical need have failed to respond to how they would have reacted if the Americans killed all Talban men and their boys who had pubic hair and taken Talban women as war bounty sex slaves on the sunnah of the Prophet? How would they have reacted if the Kurdish fighters killed all the IS men and boys and taken the IS women and children as war bounty slaves? Would they call it humane to see the IS women and daughters being sold in the open market? Only then can you see their faces change and realise their excuses are just made up, and there is never a real humane justification for this. The excuse of ‘smelly honey’ is pathetic for another reason. Imagine the creator of the universe telling the Prophet in His eternal book that they should eat garlic if he wants! Is this really the eternal book of humanity? Is this book set in stone before time in heaven that starts a chapter with – don't listen to your wives, eat smelly food! This may have fooled 7th-century desert dwellers, but it is not going to fool us.

105

ArabicTranslatedMemes @ExMuslimMemes

about 2 years ago

#101WhyWeLeft Chapter 2: Women in Islam #Reason6 You can read it easily here: https://t.co/Cp85S431AZ Otherwise, here is the explanation of the first reason related to Chapter 2. Reason #6: Underage marriages in Islam While this is “the” most talked about reason for leaving Islam, apologists have been extremely creative in responding to it and thus this is incomplete until you also read Reason #7, which addresses the numerous reasons and excuses. So, let us get started. And there are two issues here. First, the Quran does not set a minimum age for marriage. In fact, it suggests that men can divorce females before they menstruate – this means before puberty. If men are able to divorce girls who have not menstruated yet, then automatically this means they can marry a girl that has not menstruated yet. In chapter 65, the Quran sets the conditions to when to have intercourse with women you marry after a woman is divorced. It is intended to ensure that the child you get from her is yours. We strongly recommend you read it from the start so that they don’t accuse us of being ‘selective’ in our interpretation. https://t.co/oOyadzkl0c Our focus is verse 4, where it says: "And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] *those who have not menstruated* ...." Quran 65:4 Feel free to check all the Tafsers (explanations) that refer to underage girls! https://t.co/A7jBwfZqxv And then comes many *authentic* Hadith about Aisha's age at marriage. Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so, and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Bukhari 3896) https://t.co/AJXcrX9efj Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old, and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Bukhari (5134) https://t.co/dH9ZC8GSpr Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place), they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) Bukhari 6130 https://t.co/NuOkFc8pA2 I hear you say, this is Bukhari. Maybe Bukhari is a liar!! Here is Sahih Muslim: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.' Muslim (1422b) https://t.co/YejFxfPfRa 'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (PBUH) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Muslim 1422c https://t.co/eCl2vjvHLv Maybe SahihBukhari and SahihMuslim are both liars, right? All the other sources agreed on the same thing: Sunan Abi Majid, Sunan Abi Majah, Sunan Abu Dawud. https://t.co/wvtGhAYZAk In total, there are 41 Hadith relating to 12 different narrations of the same thing: Aisha being either 6 or 7 at the time of marriage but 9 when the intercourse took place. The most detailed account is a chapter in Sunan Abi Majah titled: Marriage of minor girls arranged by their fathers: https://t.co/6duMYWywin After scholars struggled with this issue, especially the rate of little girls dying during their first night of marriage, some kept digging until they found a twisted analysis that suggests because of the age of Aisha’s sister and time of Hijrah, Aisha must have been 18. Does this strike you as dis-ingenuine to dismiss all these many Hadiths, and even the Quran to fix an issue that is clearly evident in Islam! Traditionalists and Islamists have no problem with the issue of underage marriages because it puts the power in the man’s hands and puts a woman in her traditional place as a servant to the man. The younger the girls are pushed in that direction, the less likely they will have issues later in adjusting to the slave-like role that Islam prescribes for them. As clearly explained in the introduction, we are not addressing them here. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Issue 6.1. Sensible and educated people, including a mass amount of medical research, can see the biological and psychological harm that comes from underage marriages of girls. So, to those with a knowledgeable understanding of these issues, how can you justify a religion that supposedly is perfect, yet explicitly allowing underage marriages? How can this perfect religion not recognize but rather give the approval for a severe form of child abuse? Apologists Response: Issue 6.1: This is one of Islam’s most misunderstood issues. First, much of the Hadith was collected some 200 years after Muhammad had died. Thus, they are open to mistakes and misinterpretation. Some may even say that enemies of Islam, at the time, injected these disgusting Hadiths to damage Islam. Quran 65:4 is not talking about girls. It is talking about women who cannot have menstrual cycles or are too old and no longer have menstrual cycles. Therefore, it is a misinterpretation. The Quran and Hadith agree that no harm should affect women when getting married or during pregnancy, and make sure her well-being is protected. >> Our response: First of all, you need to read the verse Quran 65:4 carefully to notice that in the first part it already addresses those who do not have menstrual cycle (on the grounds of being old). But in the next part, the Quran emphasis, is clear to include those who have not menstruated – this includes (and does not exclude) young girls. "And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] *those who have not menstruated* ...." Quran 65:4 The Tafsir, the Islamic sources that we relied on for 1400 years, clearly states this has to do with underage girls. The Tafsirs, in all its forms, use the term ‘underage girl’. Second, if we were to be selective the way you are with the Hadith, you would be the first to point it out. The Sunnah is one of the key pillars of Islam. The Quran says to pray, but only the Hadiths explains how to pray. The Quran says to perform Hajj, but only the Hadith explains how to perform the Hajj. The Quran says to fast Ramadan, but only the Hadith explains how to fast, and the different rules associated with it. So, it is odd that moderates would go as far as throw the whole Hadith under the bus when faced with something embarrassing. Final Thoughts: We all see our daughters, sisters, neighbours, nieces, and friends growing up. Look out when they 6 years old. That is around the age where they just started to learn additions and subtractions, and just about completed memorised the alphabet. How can anyone think that a girl of that age can make a live decision as to marry a 20 year old man let alone a 50-year-old man! And if we are to take the Prophet’s best example and wait till the girl is 9 to have sex with her, have you seen what a nine year old looks like? If you have a daughter or a sister, you would be blind not to notice that they are still little girls. Their body is not fit to carry a child, and in absolute cases, they are breastless – meaning they cannot even breastfeed a child! In the next section, we address the many excuses by apologist who accepted the overwhelming evidence that Islam permitted underage sex but sought to find another way around it.

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