Top Tweets for #DefenceCommissionOfIndia
First we shd decide whether we want a light tank with optimum protection
Or
Mountain tank with full protection weighing > 30 tons
Bcos if We replace 7 ton stanag 4 cockeril turret with stanag 6 turret
Weight = 30 tons
We need #DefenceCommissionOfIndia
Yes Vishnu, I said NO- Chinese Tank does not have STANAG 6 it has HIGHER level protection; but you presumed since I said NO - it has lower.
I explained in detail that a heavier tank cannot climb slopes and is more vulnerable ie a tank with 36 tons but to cater for 30mm APFSDS - a minimum of STANAG 6 is required.
STANAG 6 was part of initial QR with weight given as 25 Tons plus/minus 10%. So to increase the protection from current STANAG 4 to STANAG 6, the weight penalty is only 2 ton which does not impact any operational capability.
Areal density - For 7 m² - frontal arc
STANAG 4~100–150 kg/m² x 7 = 0.70–1.05 t
STANAG 6~350–450 kg/m²x 7 = 2.45–3.15 t
Increment= +1.4–2.45 t
And this is PSQR (prelim SQR) not final SQR which is GSQR. Though STANAG 6 is achievable with 25+2.5 tons, but if it cannot be achieved - the User will/can accept STANAG 6 minus as MARK 1.
This is why chose MAKE-1 which is design and development and not a PROCUREMENT.
The stanag 4 cockeril turret weighs 7 tons.
New stanag 6 turret will weigh more
If we add this weight to 2.5 ton extra fr the plate at front ,with add ons it will be 30 tons
Thats why we need a multidisciplinary #DefenceCommissionOfIndia to vet these PSQRs GSQRs
Yes Vishnu, I said NO- Chinese Tank does not have STANAG 6 it has HIGHER level protection; but you presumed since I said NO - it has lower.
I explained in detail that a heavier tank cannot climb slopes and is more vulnerable ie a tank with 36 tons but to cater for 30mm APFSDS - a minimum of STANAG 6 is required.
STANAG 6 was part of initial QR with weight given as 25 Tons plus/minus 10%. So to increase the protection from current STANAG 4 to STANAG 6, the weight penalty is only 2 ton which does not impact any operational capability.
Areal density - For 7 m² - frontal arc
STANAG 4~100–150 kg/m² x 7 = 0.70–1.05 t
STANAG 6~350–450 kg/m²x 7 = 2.45–3.15 t
Increment= +1.4–2.45 t
And this is PSQR (prelim SQR) not final SQR which is GSQR. Though STANAG 6 is achievable with 25+2.5 tons, but if it cannot be achieved - the User will/can accept STANAG 6 minus as MARK 1.
This is why chose MAKE-1 which is design and development and not a PROCUREMENT.
We need a #DefenceCommissionOfIndia to vet these PSQRs, GSQRs, ASRs
And stop unrealistic spec upgrades during R&D
No
#DefenceEGGSpurt highlights this lacuna styming #AtmanirbharBharatDefence systems like #MBTArjun #DRDOATAGS #NagATGM #TejasMk1A #TejasMk2 ##StealthAMCA fr yrs
Zorowar is a hilarious example of how Indian users create the conditions for failure of Indian IP
-emphasises multiple times the importance of high power to weight ratio for high altitudes, in fact the former DG puts a number of >30hp per ton as a preference (requirement?) and also limiting ground pressure
-justifies the 25-27ton weight limit on airlift limitations from Leh (naturally there is zero focus on how they have deployed and redeployed 50+ ton K9, T90/T72 from Leh)
~25 tons limit also allows for amphibious capabilities (he mentions for the Western sector and island territories)
-then makes it clear STANAG 6 protection has been a QR from day 1
So the entire absurdity of their requirements have been baked into this project from the start. Even a superficial search will highlight that no tracked fighting vehicle that weighs less than ~32 tons has STANAG 6 protection of any form. NONE.
To get the 30hp per ton, STANAG 6 etc you’d end up creating a ~32-35 ton tank with a 1000hp engine, effectively the Type 15 which he states DRDO were initially effectively copying until the army created the QRs (which bound them to ~25 tons)
A process absolutely destined to fail from the outset but the bigger picture that is clear is the DRDO DcPP effort is the sideshow for the light tank requirement, the 59 units allocated to them were to appease DRDO, the 295 Make 1 effort is their focus. No doubt it will run into the same limitations
59 for DRDO, 18 MK1, 42 MK1A
295 Make 1 split 60:40
What an absolute circus that will go nowhere anytime soon despite the fact that Zorowar went from design to testing within 3 years and initially looked like a success story
Contrary to how this episode was billed no real answers were given, just an insight into the mess of Indian user requirements vs Indian industry and why Indian IP will always struggle to emerge, let alone ever be inducted at scale.
They either don’t know what they want or it cannot be achieved but they are very certain what they are doing is correct. Rinse and repeat
+ your angst at the lack of compounding on Zorowar was valid @VishnuNDTV , that is the crux of the issue and the former DG didn’t engage with it very much at all other than clutching at the QRs that are inherently flawed (protection AND lightness). DRDO/Zorowar/this entire effort was setup to fail, and then they point to Arjun as a failure when it had the exact same treatment.
We shd hv a #DefenceCommissionOfIndia to vet these specs
And stop unrealistic spec upgrades during R&D
No
#DefenceEGGSpurt highlights this lacuna styming #AtmanirbharBharatDefence systems like #MBTArjun #DRDOATAGS #NagATGM #TejasMk1A #TejasMk2 ##StealthAMCA fr yrs
This entire video could’ve been 5 minutes long. Let the general explain their requirements, then ask what product in existence is capable of meeting them. 25 tons is your limitation fine, given the laws of physics how do you meet that (or get even close) if you also demand STANAG 6?
They wanted a Type 15 built out of unobtainium
Parrikar’s words only get more valid every time you listen to Indian users
Unless we hv a multi disciplinary #DefenceCommissionOfIndia with statuary powers to oversee induction of decent tech #AtmanirbharBharatDefence weapons in bulk
Each individual at the helm will play havoc with country's tech future & national security
A good example of how priorities change with change of leadership. ACM Bhadoria was all for LCA program and ACM AP Singh has consistently expressed his reservations in various forums.
There has to be an empowered body that oversees wpn sys induction. This personality based sys
#TejasMk1 navy
Joins a long list of
#AtmanirbharBharatDefence
#MBTArjun
#DRDOATAGS
#TapasUCAV
#GREKaveri
usable decent tech weapons ,
R & Dced using 1000 s of crores taxpayer money , & decades of scientists man hours & thrown away
Need #DefenceCommissionOfIndia
We are so rich that after spending thousands of crores, we've thrown this entire technology base into the sea, in favour of imports. "Immediately after Rafale contract is signed, we will take these for training." This is what was said. White lies.
@alpha_defense #MBTZorawar
Classic #BrochureEngineering game
Started by #ImportBahadur #BuffoonRatna s
Why didn't they specify the protection level initially?
This is how they stalled #MBTArjun, kept adding new stuff & rejecting it as overweight
We need
#DefenceCommissionOfIndia
#MBTZorawar
Classic #BrochureEngineering game
Started by #ImportBahadur #BuffoonRatna s
Why didn't they specify the protection level initially?
This is how they stalled #MBTArjun, kept adding new stuff & rejecting it as overweight
We need
#DefenceCommissionOfIndia
Zorawar's induction is likely to slip by ~2 years past the original 2027 forward high-altitude deployment target.
Cause: Army wants protection upgraded beyond STANAG Level 4 (currently it defeats MG fire, artillery shrapnel, limited mine blasts)
Constraint: weight must stay under 25 tonnes for high-altitude mobility, so developers must swap in better-performing protective materials rather than just add armor
@alpha_defense HAL was making bulk head s fr #StealthAMCA fuselage in 2023.
CCS sanctioned 15000 cr on March 2024.
Present
Def Secy's DcPP circus has stopped AMCA pv build fr 2.5 yrs, due to repeated ,"tender extensions"
Parallel French FCAS deal ,"moving"
#DefenceCommissionOfIndia
HAL was making bulk head s fr #StealthAMCA fuselage in 2023.
CCS sanctioned 15000 cr on March 2024.
Present
Def Secy's DcPP circus has stopped AMCA pv build fr 2.5 yrs, due to repeated ,"tender extensions"
Parallel French FCAS deal ,"moving"
#DefenceCommissionOfIndia
😁. This is fascinating! A Pvt Indian company & India's premier defence R&D establishment design & produce a light tank, which is then tested & some improvements suggested. Parallely a larger order is given to someone with a yet to be designed product? Is there something amiss?
@MalikAshutosh HAL was making bulk head s fr #StealthAMCA fuselage in 2023.
CCS sanctioned 15000 cr on March 2024.
Present
Def Secy's DcPP circus has stopped AMCA pv build fr 2.5 yrs, due to repeated ,"tender extensions"
Parallel French FCAS deal ,"moving"
#DefenceCommissionOfIndia
#MBTArjun
Program was finished to the specs given by IA , in a program headed by by legendary Lt Col Ajai Singh , known as Tank man in IA in 1993,
Fr the past 30 yrs repeated #BrochureEngineering GSQR revisions stalled it
Why we need #DefenceCommissionOfIndia
Indian generals deserve nothing but shame for what they did to this boy
Unless we debate thread bare , "the absurdity of #BrochureEngineering nonsense " , that goes in the name of ASR/GSQR framing"
We bleed billions in forex, fr MNC's "water downed" white elephants , that can't integrate our systems.
We need qualified ##DefenceCommissionOfIndia
‘Disruptive’ is very popular until people realize what/who is going to get “disrupted”! Or that ‘Q’ of ‘SQR’ is supposed to be ‘qualitative’ not ‘quantitative’! - all while the’R’ is the real problem - high time it was replaced with ‘PDS’ where P stands for problem not ‘product’!
@JA_Maolankar Unless we debate thread bare , "the absurdity of #BrochureEngineering nonsense " , that goes in the name of ASR/GSQR framing"
We bleed billions in forex, fr MNC's "water downed" white elephants , that can't integrate our systems.
We need qualified ##DefenceCommissionOfIndia
@alpha_defense Unless we debate thread bare , "the absurdity of #BrochureEngineering nonsense " , that goes in the name of ASR/GSQR framing"
We bleed billions in forex, fr MNC's "water downed" white elephants , that can't integrate our systems.
We need qualified ##DefenceCommissionOfIndia
An excellent podcast. Ore than technology, it is the decision making bottlenecks and lack of a single overarching agency taking those decisions, is the fundamental problem. Right now these decisions are department and at that time who is the apex leader driven.
@shiv_cybersurg Classic #BrochureEngineer to turn #AtmanirbharBharatDefence #TapasUCAV perpetual lab rat
From 1995 to 2025 100s of Mq1s with far lower altitude ceiling than #TapasUCAV flew 2 million miles in USnavy
Other than an empowered ##DefenceCommissionOfIndia, nothing will solve thus
@rathorekaran17 Classic #BrochureEngineer to turn #AtmanirbharBharatDefence #TapasUCAV perpetual lab rat
From 1995 to 2025 100s of Mq1s with far lower altitude ceiling than #TapasUCAV flew 2 million miles in USnavy
Other than an empowered ##DefenceCommissionOfIndia, nothing will solve thus
@ShiroBarks Classic #BrochureEngineer to turn #AtmanirbharBharatDefence #TapasUCAV perpetual lab rat
From 1995 to 2025 100s of Mq1s with far lower altitude ceiling than #TapasUCAV flew 2 million miles in USnavy
Other than an empowered ##DefenceCommissionOfIndia, nothing will solve thus
Classic #BrochureEngineer to turn #AtmanirbharBharatDefence #TapasUCAV perpetual lab rat
From 1995 to 2025 100s of Mq1s with far lower altitude ceiling than #TapasUCAV flew 2 million miles in USnavy
Other than an empowered ##DefenceCommissionOfIndia, nothing will solve thus.
I really do not understand how 28k feet is such a disadvantage as against a 30k feet requirement. It’s the Arjun story being repeated yet again. Earlier they had whipped out the tarazoo now they are whipping out the ‘measuring tape’. The myopic tunnel vision is the common factor.
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