J. Scott Wagner

Rarely post- love many disparate awesome thinkers and feelers here. Complexity, poetry, animals, feminist and cognitive philosophy, AGI, Millikan/selection.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@sapiogenic @AnimalandLandXO Never thought of that- thnx for pointing that out, that helps alter my attitude

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@AnimalandLandXO Love this- thanks much. Beauty everywhere one looks

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@AnimalandLandXO @JohnOberg It’s a lot worse than that. I’m not up on the physiologic mechanism, but we’re unconscious quickly and then dead in a min or three- it takes them well over ten minutes to die typically.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@mortalamycoil @DrGipps We are fans.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@InVitroFuture “Probably also a shortening of gypsy” 😝makes it hard to use the word now…so much work to be correct for so many.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@pschofie79 Yes, but you’re a bit unusual.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

For the “this didn’t need a study” crowd: it did. The substitute for pain most people assume exists in less complex animals is a kind of computer 1s and 0s idea- programming- where say you lose a leg and nothing happens except the little computer of a being tries to do without, without even a shrug worth of emotion- maybe something akin to mild disappointment, but that’s it. The great battle in animal abolition is imo establishing consciousness in the most important sense, practically speaking: that animals besides ourselves have been led through evolution to use pain as their primary behavioral touchpoint. It is NOT obvious to most humans that insects suffer, because we assume incorrectly that there are other motivational prime movers within beings.

The nature of pain in very small and other creatures without central nervous systems is still unknown. Maybe the folk wisdom is right with them. It’s sure wrong with insects and all other animals with nervous systems , and that needs to be pounded in via studies.

Pain is so key.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

Replacement of animal agriculture is not antiag, it’s anti animal exploitation. Real ag is growing plants…these supposedly horrifying intents of replacing factory farm slaughter and having people go vegan aren’t germane in the face of a massively polluting, cruel factory farm dependence in the West- these rich people mostly contribute to effect modest welfare reforms, like going cage-free.

Often in life it’s weirdly entertaining to get oneself horrified about the opposition’s REAL, SECRET intent, but the fact is that your factory farm orientation is far more dominant, and EA people don’t pose a real threat in the near-term to your many odd factory farm defenses.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@drcrystalheath @AVMAvets Thank you, Dr. Smith-Blackmore!

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@deane_ag @drcrystalheath @AVMAvets Sorry, I don’t understand you. What is an overstatement?

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@the_mel_jar A wonderful central position- thank you.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@bolaurent Thank you so much for opening that door, and helping so many others get through it.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

Look at you, freezeframed just outside your evil closet clutching gluten and UPF bars. Was it too early to come out? Some of us think yes, and we’ve decorated in here so it’s more comfy. Tell us when the shooting’s over.

I love gluten in the kitchen too, and am about to try my first foray into mixing this greatest of food evils with silken tofu. I’ve also made my own bars, which are an absolute necessity here in my closet- mixing, processing, heating, scheming however I can to get around nature to hotwire to health

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@mbolotnikova @JessLReid https://t.co/R5SV2FxKmx

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@mbolotnikova @JessLReid My kind of burglars (all were charged with a count of burglary, max 25k and 12.5 years

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

I do praise people who try. And you’re right, most people improve by small changes, like I have with my diet over time.

I wasn’t trying to be insulting, and it’s great you’re in flux over ethical considerations. As i said, it’s very healthy to name the strength of our relative motivations instead of leaving them implicit like you did. Doing so is being honest with ourselves, which we wiggle out of doing a lot. Like nowadays i drive to a gym i don’t need to go to bc i like working out there, but i have this thing about gas use: so I make myself face the “cognitive dissonance” involved by confessing to myself that though i may speak words expressing dismay at any wasteful gas use, what’s going on is that a small difference in workout experience is more important to me than my desire to minimize my responsibility for global warming.

In Soto Zen Buddhism there’s a kind of confession or naming tradition that encourages us to name what’s going on. What I’ve found is key is their dictum that one does this “with no judgement.” I’m just noticing the contradiction or the conflicting desires in my gym visits. The amazing result of just noticing things (like our relative motivations) is that simple noticing can have a huge behavioral effect over (usually) a long time. Mindlessness- automatic, unthinking action- has a very powerful ability to keep us the same or to fall deeper into unwanted habit.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

It’s not much different than a human with cancer entering a trial with an experimental cancer drug.

This is in keeping with a basic premise Dr. Heath has advocated in veterinary science as well: do surgery training and treatment experiments on animals that need the help. Take the time and effort to be efficient and focused in treatment and training with patients, not fake ones. Don’t torture and kill random animals that don’t need treatment, who are often scientifically poor substitutes for sick animals.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

@drcrystalheath Absolutely I would, if my dog had a condition that matched the purpose of the treatment, and subject to health monitoring /support conditions.

[J. Scott Wagner @jscottwagner]

We’re talking about specific morally egregious, entirely avoidable cruelties; you are literally changing the subject to make a case about your ´truth’ that something something is a lot worse elsewhere or before. It ain’t so bad- that’s the point.

Making the statement implies you somehow equate our chosen moral equations about meat, with acts of God.

And a minor pt, the many animals do ok in high jeat times by having good shade or water. But of course you’re right, many animals suffer greatly in the wild under many conditions and situations.

As said, the logic chain kicked my butt.