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Mormon history & truth claims • BYU sports • politics

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The argument was “frauds don’t produce disciples”.

Frauds absolutely can produce disciples.

The examples are endless, but just for a quick one: Scientology - the religion started by a science fiction author and followed by tens of thousands.

Zeal is a bad indicator for truth.

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For the current members of the LDS Church, how do you calculate/pay your tithing?

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@ExMosPostingLs Just double checking here - are you suggesting that the “guess” in this case was that… Native Americans existed in 600 BCE?

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@pbabinski91 Correct, he dictated it. That’s why this verse and so many others in the Book of Mormon are long run-on sentences filled with duplicative language. The language of the Book of Mormon makes way more sense when you consider it is an oral dictation instead of a written translation.

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@JordanGuatqui I wouldn’t call you a prick, but you are correct that the Church will certainly outlive me.

However - imagine how great will be my joy if I can bring even one soul to the knowledge of the truth.

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@JordanGuatqui Assuming I’m correct about the truthfulness (or lack thereof) of the foundational truth claims of the Church - wouldn’t this chart be even more of a reason to double down on the hobby of trying to share truth with the members of the Church?

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Let’s call it a little healthy balance after spending most of my life and 2 full years on a mission in support of the Church.

When the apologetics stopped working for me and my faith in the Book of Mormon / Joseph Smith disappeared, it absolutely rocked me. I think this X profile is a little cathartic in the sense that I can share true facts about the Church history that I wish I had known earlier in my life.

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@bcbaker66 I think it’s a fairly common talking point and implication with the Church, but you’re right that you didn’t say anything about the truthfulness of the Church in your post here.

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@InformedSaints Why on Earth would we be looking for the Hill Cumorah anywhere other than New York, where Joseph Smith said it was?

Was Joseph wrong?

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@mithrilmormon Except - if this is Joseph Smith in the middle, he would be the one securing eternal sex with your wife in the hereafter, assuming you are one of the men unlucky enough to have had Joseph seal himself to your wife.

Seems like a pretty raw deal if you ask me.

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I think one of the most valuable resources for me in understanding early Church history was LDS Discussions. The delivery is about as kind and gentle as you can get when dealing with the truth claims of the Church, but was so helpful in understanding the truth compared to the clean & correlated version the Church has manufactured over time.

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I couldn’t agree more. One of the most painful parts of my faith crisis/journey has been seeing how much it’s hurt my family and caused them to pull away. At a time when I need them more than ever the difference in faith and beliefs has made them see me as more of a threat than as someone in need of love.

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Mormon 1:18 - The folk magic and treasure digging worldview was so strong at the time of Joseph Smith that he literally wrote it into the Book of Mormon:

“And these Gadianton robbers, who were among the Lamanites, did infest the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof began to hide up their treasures in the earth; and they became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the land, that they could not hold them, nor retain them again.”

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I’d spend some meaningful time reading or listening to the LDS Discussions podcast.

The Church is full of incredible people, and if a great community is what you’re hoping for, they’re some of the best.

However, if truth is what you’re looking for, you should go in with your eyes wide open understanding that the foundational stories and truth claims of the LDS Church simply don’t hold up.

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@BrighamSaid Do you ever share the fun quotes from Brigham? Or just the bland, inoffensive, spiritual ones?

Brigham was a firecracker! Let the people meet the real Brigham!

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@bcbaker66 The Church is growing in some regions and shrinking in others. Regardless - growth is a pretty bad indicator of truthfulness.

Whether the Church is growing or not has no bearing on whether or not the foundational truth claims are in fact true.

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@LDSBishop_Vader If they would just lock the doors after sacrament meeting and force people to go to Sunday school we wouldn’t be dealing with this issue.

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I really appreciate you being willing to share and express your faith and your personal experience.

It means a lot, and I also really appreciate your willingness to try to work through some of the hard questions with our Church history. At the risk of being patronizing - I’ll save you the trouble. I’m just prideful enough to think that I know enough about church history at this point that I’m beyond “saving”, and frankly I don’t have a ton of desire to tear down genuine faith and belief when I see it.

I wish you the very best Brother Millstone