Blainer

[Blainer @Blainer101]

I believe he's getting it from this publication,

Prostitution, Polygamy, and Power: Salt Lake City, 1847–1918 by Jeffrey D. Nichols

It is the definitive scholarly work on prostitution in early Salt Lake City, and Nichols relied heavily on:
police records,
court records,
city council minutes,
tax and property records,
newspapers,
and surviving business records from brothels.

[Blainer @Blainer101]

I believe he's getting it from this publication,

Prostitution, Polygamy, and Power: Salt Lake City, 1847–1918 by Jeffrey D. Nichols

It is the definitive scholarly work on prostitution in early Salt Lake City, and Nichols relied heavily on:
police records,
court records,
city council minutes,
tax and property records,
newspapers,
and surviving business records from brothels.

[Blainer @Blainer101]

@PetGorilla Unfortunately, there seems to be truth to this. It's an ugly part of our church history.

Prostitution, Polygamy, and Power: Salt Lake City, 1847–1918 by Jeffrey D. Nichols

[Blainer @Blainer101]

@diharagirimana It's ai

[Blainer @Blainer101]

Random, your still asking questions? When are you going to start thinking on your own? After all the evidence we have sifted through, this is where you are at???

I am not going to answer this one for you! You need to learn how to look at the evidence and come to your own conclusions. But I will point you in the right direction. But you have to find your own answer at this point.

Here is your assignment...
Before starting the assignment, go and read and digest the definition of Spiritual Coercion... then proceed...
1. Go back and look at the women that rejected Joseph Smith, and see how Joseph reacted when these women rejected his initial proposal.... Look for the following...
a. Did Joseph accept the rejection and move on to another woman?
b. Or did he double down with more spiritual coercion? What kind of pressure was he putting on these women? What were the things he told them? How do his actions fit into God's gift of free agency? The Happiness letter to Nancy Rigdon is a great place to start. Be sure to watch for any form of manipulation.
2. Analyze the relationship dynamics and take into consideration the position of these women within the church, the pressures their parents may have been putting on them to please the prophet, and also the kind of pressure that these women must have felt having their prophet tell them that the Lord commanded him to marry them.

Several of his wives later documented the emotional turmoil, fear, and internal conflict they experienced. Two good accounts to research are Helen Mar Kimball's and Lucy Walker's writings regarding their feelings about Joseph's proposal's and how their souls revolted against it.
3. Watch the documentary about Sam Bateman in "Trust Me: The False Prophet on Netflix" and look for the episode where one of Sam Bateman's teen wives (Naomi) describes having her spiritual witness where God told her that she should marry Sam Bateman, and that it was God's will. Digest the spiritual experience she describes in knowing that her marrying Sam Bateman is truly God's will. Don't just Ai what happened. Go and watch it so that you can see and feel her emotion. Then ask yourself if you believe that Sam Bateman was a true prophet of God, and whether you feel that she may have been manipulated. If you want to dig into this further, dig into similar stories with Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, and Sun Myung Moon. They all include very similar experiences.
4. In the case of Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, consider the following...
a. How many years after this witness did she finally share this experience? Why did it take her so long?
b. Joseph did teach us that Satan or Evil spirits can appear as "an angel of light" in order to deceive people. How do we know that an evil spirit didn't appear to her as an angel of light? This according to Joseph Smith is certainly possible.
5. Go read the definition of "Spiritual Coercion" again, and this time ask yourself if spiritual coercion could have played a factor in the responses of these women. Make a list of the details that you find that would fall under spiritual coercion.

Random, you need to have the skills to find these answers for yourself. Just be careful to leave any bias you have, and let your soul speak to you! Find your moral compass and allow it to tell you if these coercions were truly from God.

Let me know how you do! Or don't! Good luck to you in your pursuit of truth!

[Blainer @Blainer101]

@RandomRation @Faustzme Not true! Joseph told multiple women that God commanded him to marry them!

You are adamant about gaslighting yourself!! So be it. God gave you free agency.

I need to move on. Good luck to you!! I hope the best for you!!

[Blainer @Blainer101]

So God is now just recommending? Not commanding?

If God didn't tell him to marry another man's wife, then why did he??? Did he just do that because he fell in love with the other man's wife? God told us in Exodus 20:17 "thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife"!

Did Joseph not know this was one of God's commandments?

"I think he only had the vision that all the families of the human race needed to be sealed and united together in order to enter the kingdom of God."
So he sealed himself to other men's wives? Not just once, but at least three times???

Can you yet understand why people outside the church think Mormons are so crazy?? Our prophet of God is marrying other men's wives as well as young girls not old enough to consent!

Joseph Smith was Messed Up!!

Be sure to answer why Brigham Young married girls so young! He didn't have the same excuse you used for Joseph. He had plenty of children, even children from those he married young. Why did he have to marry them so young? Polygamy was already started, so you can't use that argument! Why did Brigham have to have wives so young?

[Blainer @Blainer101]

@RandomRation @Faustzme And can you give ANY logical reason why God would command him to marry another man's wife??

Doesn't God believe in the law of chastity? Why would a True God who values morality require that of Joseph?????

What crazy reason can you come up with?

[Blainer @Blainer101]

So since children were not born, that makes it ok?

Your logic is still off! And all of your argument still doesn't add up!

And there still isn't a good reason to marry them so young!

What about Brigham Young? He had plenty of children, even from those he married young. Why did he have to marry them so young? Polygamy was already started, so you can't use that argument! Why did Brigham have to have wives so young?

Could it have been for the same reason as Joseph?

[Blainer @Blainer101]

So God told him to marry children? Just for the sake of implementing polygamy???? And he commanded Joseph to marry other men's wives (and commit adultery) ... just to implement polygamy? Really??? JUST TO IMPLIMENT IT???

Do you really believe that???

Again, what is the purpose of implementing it with young teenage girls ... If you get married and do nothing????

If it doesn't make sense, then it is not true (Judge Judy)!

Again, that is bullshit!! And you wonder why people think Mormons are crazy... and you wonder why people think that Joseph is a pedophile!! HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW BULLSHIT THAT IS???

Also, you literally just answered your own question about why people call him a pedophile and an adulterer!!

[Blainer @Blainer101]

I appreciate your attempt, but you still didn't answer the question! Read my question again and please answer it this time.

So, why was it so important for our early prophets to marry SUCH YOUNG GIRLS? If it wasn't about sex, then WHY COULDN'T THEY WAIT at least a few more years to marry them, SO THE CHILDREN THEY MARRIED COULD MATURE FIRST?

I wasn't asking about why he started polygamy. I asked why it was so important to marry them so young if it wasn't about sex?

[Blainer @Blainer101]

Ok, I will answer that just as soon as you answer my question that you have been evading ...

So, why was it so important for our early prophets to marry such young girls? If it wasn't about sex, then why couldn't they wait at least a few more years to marry them, so the children they married could mature first?

[Blainer @Blainer101]

@RandomRation @Faustzme "Again, you are assuming that God told Joseph Smith who to marry him out and when and how to approach it, etc."

I have no idea where the hell you got that from. I don't believe God EVER told Joseph who to marry and how to do it!

[Blainer @Blainer101]

You will not answer my question because there IS NO GOOD REASON to marry these girls so young ... other than to have sex with them! If it wasn't about sex, then they would have absolutely waited until they were older ... but they didn't.
1+1=2 ... This isn't hard Random!

You are naive to think it wasn't about sex. I don't care what they said... they wanted to have sex with them. If it WASN'T about sex, then they absolutely would have waited for them to mature!

The smoking gun is that they actually did marry them, when they didn't have to!

This is just religious coercion! It is spiritual abuse! and it is ugly!

[Blainer @Blainer101]

I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to wiping out young women and children in an evil society.

Stay focused! ... Why was it so important for our early prophets to marry such young girls? If it wasn't about sex, then why couldn't they wait at least a few more years to marry them, so the children they married could mature first?

[Blainer @Blainer101]

I can't even imagine that God would even command that. That 100% goes against my moral compass. In addition, that goes against God's gift of free agency! God will not force us to do anything. That should be your second clue that those are Joseph's words, not from God. That just does not make sense. I can't imagine God doing that because I don't believe God is that immoral, nor would he take away our free agency!

So, why was it so important for our early prophets to marry such young girls? If it wasn't about sex, then why couldn't they wait at least a few more years to marry them, so the children they married could mature first?
_____________________________

Oliver didn't have to see it to know about it. Oliver was very clear that he absolutely did know about it. And he was not a hostile source.

Also, you just said "Cowdery denied that Joseph had ever confessed wrongdoing to him." That was indeed Joseph's lie trying to cover Joseph's Adultery. Oliver heard that Joseph did this and corrected him in a Jan 21 1838 letter written to Joseph saying...
"I learn from Kirtland, by the last letters, that you have publickly said, that when you were here I confessed to you that I had willfully lied about you— this compels me to ask you to correct that statement, and give me an explanation—until which you and myself are two."

His witness is certainly credible, and as I told you before, Emma also confirmed her knowledge of it later to William McLellin. Even Emma was accusing him of it!

Also his pattern of pursuing women only corroberates Oliver's accusation. You say that God was commanding him to do this. But from outside the bubble, Joseph was clearly manipulating these women. It is pretty disgusting actually! Did you read Joseph's happiness letter to Nancy Rigdon? In the happiness letter to Nancy, Joseph argued that obeying God's commands - even if they appear morally wrong - leads to happiness. Do you see how Joseph is bending her sense of morality to get her to marry him? It is pretty disgusting! Or how about how Joseph hung eternal salvation/condemnation over the head of Zina Diantha Huntington and Helen Mar Kimball if they rejected him. Zina was already in love with another man and was planning on marrying him, but Joseph commanded her to marry him instead. I would say that all three of these examples are considered grooming, spiritual abuse, coercive control, and manipulation! It is disgusting and wrong!!

So tell me... why was it so important for our early prophets to marry such young girls? If it wasn't about sex, then why couldn't they wait at least a few more years to marry them, so the children they married could mature first?

And are you ok with Joseph's religious coercion? Find that moral compass! You have to have one somewhere!

[Blainer @Blainer101]

Random, we are going in circles at this point. I wouldn't call Oliver Cowdery (one of the three witnesses of the BOM) a hostile source. When he accused Joseph Smith of the "dirty, nasty, filthy scrape" with Fannie, Oliver Cowdery was still a member in good standing and also a very close friend still to Joseph Smith! He had No Reason to make that accusation other than it actually happened. Emma confirmed her knowledge of it later to William McLellin as well.

Just one question for you! Why was it so important for our early prophets to marry such young girls? If it wasn't about sex, then why couldn't they wait at least a few more years to marry them, so the children they married could mature first?

Why Random???????

[Blainer @Blainer101]

Honestly, Brigham Young (and other prophets) did that on their own. No need for "Anti-Mormons" to take things out of context. They did that to themselves!!

For some reason you think this CONTEXT makes a grown man in his 30's ok to marry a handful of teen girls, as young as 14! For him to have an affair with Fanny Alger in the barn, and this CONTEXT makes it ok for Joseph to marry other men's wives even though they are STILL MARRIED TO THEIR HUSBANDS, AND THEIR HUSBANDS ARE STILL LIVING!! NO CONTEXT MAKES THIS OK!! You literally are just gaslighting yourself!!

Again, you really need to find your moral compass because that is bullshit!! NO AMOUNT of Context makes any of this ok!!

Nor does any amount of Context make Brigham's Racism OK (if you argue he is a true prophet of God)!! If he is just a man not led by God, then I get your context and I agree with it!! But a true prophet of God doesn't make those kind of mistakes, because his moral compass is God! And Brigham's moral compass was NOT God!!

Again, this is WHY I can't continue as a member of the church!! Just Like You, as a member you HAVE TO RATIONALIZE why our ugly history was ok!! And that is bullshit!!

Really?? You think just 0.001% of what they said was ugly??? Really? That is just one out of 100,000 things we are told by them! Yep, again... bullshit! You are just gaslighting yourself now!!

I am recording your best responses as examples of how deeply we as human beings lose our moral compasses and ability to think and reason as members of the church. Your responses have been mind blowing!! I was bad myself as an active member, but you have me beat by a landslide... even with knowing our history!!

I am moving on! Good luck in the LDS church. Again, I truly do hope the best for you.

[Blainer @Blainer101]

Oh Random, you are getting petty!!

You said... "Brigham Young is not who the anti-Mormons claim he was." ... in other words ... the "anti-Mormons" are lying!

Logic says that if the "anti-Mormons" are saying things that are not true... then they are lying!

And that also goes with the church!! They teach us a sugar coated version of our church history. They are telling us half-truths!

"The most dangerous of all falsehoods is a slightly distorted truth." — Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

_______________________________________

Random, I know and understand your position very well now! Thank you for being so clear during this debate! I can't look past the ugliness of the church and call it righteous! And I can't look past the deception of our church and how they gaslight us as members of the church!! I just can't do it! The truth truly does matter to me. I believe that God wants us to use our head and also seek truth!

Good luck to you! I truly do hope the best for you and your family!