Greg Ramirez

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@AtheistPhoenix N. Ireland, residential schools in Canada, LRA in Uganda, National Liberation Front in Tripura, Manifest Destiny, abortion clinic bombings, the KKK, the Nazis, etc etc etc.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@IsaacDenny4 @lostinganglia It is. By definition. I think what you are attempting to ask is how did an orderly universe, that we developed things like logic to describe, come to be without god. To which I’d say: first, provide evidence that it could be different. Then prove that it was a goal, not a result.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@lostinganglia @branarf I mean, that’s kinda the point that most theists don’t understand. Like you picked this god and not the god of say Zoroastrianism. So you’ve subjectively chosen which things align with what is you want to be true.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@branarf @lostinganglia And also, I’m assuming you believe in god as described by a particular religion correct? Meaning there’s other descriptions of god and what he wants from humanity, but you’ve picked the one that feels right or makes the most sense to you. So you’re subjectively choosing.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@IsaacDenny4 @lostinganglia You understand what logic is right, “bro”?

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@branarf @lostinganglia But again, we’re back to the same point. If your standard comes from god, then that standard has been interpreted and communicated through human society. So it’s the exact same thing as having morality derived from a subjective societal consensus.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@branarf @lostinganglia Superior doesn’t mean objective. That’s kinda the whole point here.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@branarf @lostinganglia No. You’re confusing yourself. The example you gave being an objective truth isn’t the same thing as there being an objective moral standard.

The mere fact that there are crazy people who don’t think it’s an objective fact means that morality is subjective.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@nonhiddentruth @God_Questioner Nice deflection. My daughter used to lash out like that when she couldn’t properly articulate herself. Then she turned 10.

I don’t have a “deeply held belief that there is no god”, I’ve just never seen any convincing evidence that there is. You failed to change that fact.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@branarf @lostinganglia Yes, it can be better. And that’s how we come to a consensus about what’s right and wrong. We take the combination of our subjective opinions and collectively decide what our current moral standards should be. As things change and new information becomes available we adjust.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@branarf @lostinganglia I never agreed that there is an objective standard. That’s what this is about.

And god could still be omniscient and disagree with an objective standard. His agreement has no bearing on whether or not he is omniscient.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@nonhiddentruth @God_Questioner I’m getting what you’re saying. “We don’t know what happened before the big bang, so god did it.”
“Molecular biology is complicated, so god did it.”

I got it. And I didn’t say anything about your AI meme.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@nonhiddentruth @God_Questioner So now you’ve reverted to personal attacks AND arguments from personal incredulity. Sprinkled in a little argument from complexity there too I see. What was it you said about not understanding science?

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@branarf @lostinganglia No. Not all subjective opinions are equal.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@branarf @lostinganglia Yes. What do you mean here? If god knows I’m going to call in to work tomorrow, he just has knowledge of what my actions will be. I, my work, my phone, etc all exist independently from god. I’m not quite sure what exactly you’re trying to say here.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@branarf @lostinganglia No. That’s not agreed. I already said that.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@branarf @lostinganglia So either, morality exists independently from god and is objective, or he makes conscious decisions about what is and isn’t moral and the standard is subjective to his choices.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@branarf @lostinganglia It would lead to acting morally as per god’s subjective judgment as to what is and isn’t moral, yes. Definitionally it still wouldn’t be an objective moral standard.

[Greg Ramirez @Branch_Dwidian]

@lostinganglia @branarf This is the other important part of it. Who is it that is interpreting gods moral standard so the rest of us can adhere to it? Unless god is directly dictating to all of us equally, then we’re getting a 2nd or 3rd hand interpretation.