The Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) shows living apostles making decisions together. That’s not saints in heaven receiving prayer that’s a church meeting. You’ve confused two completely different things.
Revelation shows angels offering incense representing the prayers of saints (Rev 8:3-4) prayers already being made by living believers, not proof that dead saints receive directed requests. Awareness of prayers ≠ receiving directed prayer.
“God can extend Grace to others” agreed. Show me where He extended omnipresence specifically for intercession purposes. That’s the claim. That’s what needs a verse.
You’re not disengaging because the argument is settled. You’re disengaging because you’ve run out of Scripture and switched to mockery. The question stands unanswered: one verse commanding believers to ask dead saints for intercession. One
For anyone following this thread:
I asked one question repeatedly: show me one verse commanding believers to ask deceased saints for intercession.
His answers:
•Luke 20:38 (proves saints are alive, says nothing about receiving prayer)
•“1500 years of tradition” (appeal to tradition, not Scripture)
•Luke 15:10 (passive awareness ≠ receiving directed prayer)
•Acts 15 (a church meeting of living apostles)
•Rev 8:3-4 (angels carrying existing prayers, not receiving new ones)
•“Through the Grace of God” (makes God the middleman, eliminates the saint’s role)
Then left with an emoji.
The verse doesn’t exist. That’s why he couldn’t produce it
@2Atoshi@sonic_slad5483@_namori_fan_ And your last line is tellingwhen the argument runs out, attack the opponent’s Bible knowledge. That’s not a rebuttal. That’s a concession dressed up as an insult.
You haven’t changed the explanation? You said “through the Grace of God” when asked how saints hear us. Now it’s “the same grace that allowed miracles.” Those are two different mechanisms presented in response to the same question.
“God of the Living” proves saints are alive before God. It says nothing about them receiving directed prayer. You keep using that verse to prove something it doesn’t say.
The Apostles performed miracles while physically present. Show me one instance of a dead apostle receiving a prayer request from a living believer. One example. Anywhere in Scripture.
And your last line is telling
You’re contradicting yourself and you don’t see it.
You said saints hear us “through the Grace of God.” Now you say grace grants them shared power like the Apostles. Pick one either God relays the message to them, or they have delegated omnipresence. Both can’t be true simultaneously, and neither one is in Scripture.
The Apostles’ miracles required physical presence. That’s the model. Dead saints receiving directed prayer from millions simultaneously is a completely different claim and you’ve given it zero biblical support.
You’ve changed your explanation three times in this thread. That’s not theology. That’s improvisation mate!!!
“Through the Grace of God” so God relays your message to the saint, who then prays to God? You just added an unnecessary middleman Scripture never commands. If God is already involved, go directly to Him. That’s literally what Jesus taught: “Come to me” (Matt 11:28), not “go through the saints.”
And Matt 16:18 promises preservation, not doctrinal infallibility in every practice. The same Church sold indulgences for centuries. Was that also “guided by Christ”?
Not semantics. You still can’t explain the mechanism without granting saints a divine attribute.
“1500 years” is an appeal to tradition, not Scripture and historically inaccurate. Invocation of saints developed gradually post-Nicaea, not from the apostles. Israel worshipped idols for centuries too. Duration ≠ truth.
And Luke 15:10 says there’s joy in heaven over repentance. Passive awareness of events is not the same as receiving directed prayer. By that logic, pray to angels too they’re aware of earth as well.
You still haven’t answered: how does a saint
For a saint to receive your prayer, they’d need to hear millions of people simultaneously, in every language, from every location. That’s not a glorified human. That’s omnipresence a divine attribute Scripture gives to God alone. The “asking a friend” analogy breaks the moment you explain how the saint hears you.
Luke 20:38 proves the patriarchs are alive before God. It says nothing about them hearing human prayers. And Paul addresses intercession directly in 1 Tim 2:5 “one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.” One. Not one plus a catalogue of saints. The exegetical leap you’re making isn’t in the text.