Video games used to be my god. But I repent of my idolatry and place the one true King, Jesus Christ, on the throne of my heart. Lord please guide my heart.
@LogicalAgnostic@HQmindd I wanna add that i really appreciate that we're able to have this conversation without resorting to ad hominem or name-calling. I respect you, sir.
@LogicalAgnostic@HQmindd You keep trying to dodge the history by pivoting to theology, but the conversion of a fierce, external enemy like Saul is a completely different category of evidence. It's a stubborn historical fact that your argument still hasn't explained.
@LogicalAgnostic@HQmindd Yeah, that’s exactly what a "reputation" means. He didn’t convert, but as a secular historian, he documented that Jesus had an established public reputation for these things. You're literally describing the exact extra-biblical evidence you asked for while trying to reject it.
@LogicalAgnostic@HQmindd See the loop? You reject Christian sources for being biased, but any secular source that became convinced would automatically become a Christian source, which you'd then reject. You've built a closed system where no amount of historical data could ever satisfy you.
@LogicalAgnostic@HQmindd That's exactly what happened with Saul of Tarsus. He was a hostile investigator trying to crush the movement. Because his investigation convinced him, he converted and became Paul. Yet now, you reject his testimony simply because his letters are bound in the Bible.
@Jesse54624@HQmindd No one claims Josephus was a firsthand witness. The value is that a secular, non-Christian historian recorded that his reputation for "startling deeds" was an established public fact. That is extra-biblical evidence.
@LogicalAgnostic@HQmindd You're stuck in a loop. Expecting a secular Roman to report a miracle as a fact without converting is a logical impossibility. We do have extra-biblical evidence that he had an immediate, undeniable reputation for miracles (Tacitus, Josephus, Talmud). You're just ignoring it.
@LogicalAgnostic@HQmindd The disciples initially not recognizing him actually kills your argument. If they were fabricating a perfect myth, they wouldn't write themselves looking clueless, doubtful, or failing to recognize their own leader. That level of embarrassment is a hallmark of historical truth.
@LogicalAgnostic@HQmindd Dropping a vague phrase like "the numbers don't add up" isn't logic. You shifted the goalposts from historical methodology to armchair cult psychology because the actual 1st-century timeline doesn't favor you. Throwing out a fallacy doesn't make your argument logical.
@TrishSumner1@HQmindd Exactly! History doesn't care about the motives of the person who uncovers it. A Bedouin teenager tracking a goat doesn't have a religious agenda; he’s just looking for his livestock. Yet, that accidental find completely revolutionized our understanding of ancient texts.
@MiguelDolezel@HQmindd Even secular historians and archaeologists use the Bible to locate ancient cities, kings, and battles. Pontius Pilate, King David, the Babylonian exile—these are heavily backed by physical archaeology. You don't have to believe the theology to acknowledge the history.
@LogicalAgnostic@HQmindd Think about the logic: if an outside, secular historian actually investigated the claims, became convinced he saw a miracle or a resurrected Jesus, and wrote it down... he wouldn't be an "outside secular source" anymore. He'd just be a Christian writer in the New Testament.
@LogicalAgnostic@HQmindd Josephus called him a "Doer of startling deeds". The Talmudic passage Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a says he was killed for "practicing witchcraft". He was clearly doing SOMETHING to cause that sort of reaction