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@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext Tradition isn't the only thing that define what is honorable, the present customs and morals influence it too, and again, in my opinion there's a huge hole in lore about that, duels normally implies rules, and nords, with how proud they are, should have something stated about it
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext I don’t deny that that very likely would have happened; even so, it was clumsy to leave that argument in the hands of one’s opponents.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext Im not saying he broke the tradition; in fact his mistake (in my view and leaving aside my opinion that what he wanted was power) was being so attached to it that he was willing to lead Skyrim to ruin for it. And just because something is a tradition doesnt make it honorable
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext 1) He already viewed Torygg as weak and the Empire as traitors; it is to be expected that in such a tension what happened would be perceived negatively. And I think that, in any case, Tullius was always going to be there; the Empire wasn't going to let go of Skyrim so easily.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext 2) Furthermore, im gonna take a step further, if Ulfric had challenged Torygg’s father to a duel, and had become High King of Skyrim through that or any other means before the events in Markarth, everything would have been much simpler.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext 1) I’m not questioning Ulfric’s martial prowess; that’s why I believe a unified Skyrim could indeed have done something against the Thalmor, before the country was weakened by the civil war.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext 2) It’s like bringing an automatic rifle to a duel where your opponent has a dueling pistol and when the opponent complains, the judges step in and say, "Well, actually, no one specified which weapons to use, so it’s perfectly valid."
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext 1) Okay, let’s say they don’t approve it, in any case, there's a big gap between that and using the voice in a duel against a much younger and inexperienced lad. Sorry, bro; again, it’s not stated in the lore, but it strikes to me as dishonorable.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext It’s not clear if the reconstruction is finished (which is why I used the word "likely") but the southern part was destroyed, that happened.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext Lets assume what you say is correct; that wouldnt be very different from what ended up happening anyway. On one hand there was a chance to unify Skyrim without a civil war (with the possibility of being attacked by the Empire) while on the other, there was absolute certainty
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext 2) In my opinion, if the only way to secure the victory is by convincing the Dragonborn to join you then you were doomed to fail from the start. If Ulfric couldn’t take on the Empire on his own, he certainly wouldn’t have stood a chance against the Thalmor.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext 1) Bro, we’ve reached a stalemate here, the game itself makes this clear. The only one who can end the Civil War is the Dovahkiin, and whichever side they choose becomes fully justified, simply because they have an incarnate demigod on their side.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext I don’t mean that they ceded the territory; rather, the territory was outright destroyed to the point that, by the time TES V takes place, it is likely still undergoing reconstruction.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext The reason the Dragonborn isn’t put on trial is precisely because he is the Dragonborn; and I think they would have understood if Ulfric had used the Voice to defend the country against the thalmor—but in a duel where he didn’t even need to use the Voice at all?
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext Sybille Stentor is a Breton, not a Nord; furthermore, she is a vampire. That initial conversation could very well have been a way to test the waters and Ulfric might have spoken with Torygg in private—and, again, no other Jarl exposed him, not even those who support the Empire
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext 2) Skyrim could have done the same, had someone not started a bloody civil war that weakened the entire country. My grievance is not with the idea of Skyrim becoming independent, but rather that Ulfric chose the WORST possible path.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext 1) Its Hammerfell all over again: they were able to hold their own against the Thalmor—though not easily, as that war cost them their south region—because they united and because they had a legion of veteran Imperials who became the backbone of their defense.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext Torygg had already heard Ulfric himself express his position and it wasn’t just him; practically everyone at that meeting had heard them. No one acted as an informant; his position was respected.
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext In the medium to long term I’m almost certain of that—something like this will likely appear in the new game; but to enter a new war in the middle of a reconstruction? I doubt it—especially since, the moment Ulfric wins the Thalmor will start a war against skyrim
@Gurt02@fawazDS9@blacknredtext The Greybeards only teach the Voice according to the principles of the Way of the Voice; in that sense, one could say that Ulfric also betrayed their trust by using it in a way they would not approve of.