hawk

Hi Bye

[hawk @normierayar]

This channel is a treasure trove for Tamil Shaiva literature aficionados, run by Singapore Tamils. You can learn "pathikams" along with the proper "pan" that goes with it.
https://t.co/eDaFwPUoOB

[hawk @normierayar]

@MarturiV They are contemporary to the Sangam age. Sangam poetry talks about actual kings who lived then, in a language and tone that befits the era it describes, and they clearly predate the Bhakti era at the very least.

[hawk @normierayar]

it does match,clearly hand held you through the entire name and how it matches.kalki argument is lazy,can be made for any literature anywhere in the world, you can negate anything as fictional but Sangam texts are fundamentally non mythological but of a realistic flavour much to your woe

[hawk @normierayar]

Just taking one sample out for EG:

First of all the poetry and inscription clearly establish that the இரும்பொறை are a legit clan ,not a poetic fiction . Moving on to exact mapping.
சேரல் இரும்பொறை is a clan name , grandfather has it as suffix , the son and grandson have simply the names , the poetry is flowery with full name but they are of the same இரும்பொறை clan.
This is same in any era , kings are mentioned as with given names , royal titles , clan designation .
The same clan , the same region - how could they not be the same because the names don't match with the sane styling however are essentially the names !!
Ko atan - ko vali atan
Perun ko - perun சேரல்
Ilan ko - ilan சேரல்
The literary convention deviates mainly only with suffixes mentioning clan names in full .

[Marturi Vasanth @MarturiV]

Pugalur Inscription and Patirruppattu

Historical Evidence or a Later Forced Identification?

1. What Is an Original Sangam Poem? — Main Poetic Text from oral tradition later compiled by experts written in palm manuscripts which decomposes, so regular copying to be done!

2. What Is a Patikam? — This are not attached with poems, its later layers maybe late medieval works which gives the names of the poet and kings names

3. What Is a Colophon (Kolu)? — Later Attributions, Explanations and Interpretations connecting the poem subjects to supposed historical figures!

4. What Is Patirruppattu? — A Literary Anthology, Not a Contemporary History Book

5. What Does the Pugalur Inscription Actually Say? — Three Generations of Rulers but it was reconstructed due to damages and palaeographical dating has variations

6. The Three Royal Names Do Not Match — Pugalur Inscription vs. Patirruppattu

7. Who Were the Poets? — Names Supplied by Patikams, Without Independent Contemporary Attestation

8. The Critical Problem of Circular Reasoning — Dating Poems Through Unproven methodology, as if the poets witnessed the battle scenes and gave a running commentary is ridiculous claim !
No poet can write sitting in battle field, that shows its a later fictional work by an expert writer

9. The Modern Identification — R. Panneerselvam (1968) and Iravatham Mahadevan (1971), two over enthusiasts and powerful guy force fitted even though inscription and poem name did not match,

10. What Does Pugalur Really Prove? — An Ancient Inscription Cannot Independently Date Poems Through an Unproven Identification

This is like saying Kalki’s Ponniyen Selvan novel written about Raja Raja chola is thousand years old! See the novel has Raja Raja name and see this is the inscription 😊
Hope you got the circular reference with this analogy

Central Argument: A disputed identification is used to date the poems, and the resulting date is then presented as independent confirmation of that same identification. This is circular reasoning, not independent historical corroboration.

Note: Tamils showering me hate with unpleasant words are flowers to me, because I know they are victims to the false pride propaganda of yesteryear Tamil language Movement mafia

Anyone who is seriously interested can come for discussion, question me and that will make me to find loopholes in my argument

[hawk @normierayar]

Waste of time man , should do saiva posting

[hawk @normierayar]

Just taking one sample out for EG:

First of all the poetry and inscription clearly establish that the இரும்பொறை are a legit clan ,not a poetic fiction . Moving on to exact mapping.
சேரல் இரும்பொறை is a clan name , grandfather has it as suffix , the son and grandson have simply the names , the poetry is flowery with full name but they are of the same இரும்பொறை clan.
This is same in any era , kings are mentioned as with given names , royal titles , clan designation .
The same clan , the same region - how could they not be the same because the names don't match with the sane styling however are essentially the names !!
Ko atan - ko vali atan
Perun ko - perun சேரல்
Ilan ko - ilan சேரல்
The literary convention deviates mainly only with suffixes mentioning clan names in full .

[hawk @normierayar]

Iam not name calling man , but it's frankly stupid I.e the argument .
EG:
First of all the poetry and inscription clearly establish that the இரும்பொறை are a legit clan ,not a poetic fiction . Moving on to exact mapping.
சேரல் இரும்பொறை is a clan name , grandfather has it as suffix , the son and grandson have simply the names , the poetry is flowery with full name but they are of the same இரும்பொறை clan.
This is same in any era , kings are mentioned as with given names , royal titles , clan designation .
The same clan , the same region - how could they not be the same because the names don't match with the sane styling however are essentially the names !!
Ko atan - ko vali atan
Perun ko - perun சேரல்
Ilan ko - ilan சேரல்
The literary convention deviates mainly only with suffixes mentioning clan names in full .

[hawk @normierayar]

Iam not name calling man , but it's frankly stupid I.e the argument .
EG:
First of all the poetry and inscription clearly establish that the இரும்பொறை are a legit clan ,not a poetic fiction . Moving on to exact mapping.
சேரல் இரும்பொறை is a clan name , grandfather has it as suffix , the son and grandson have simply the names , the poetry is flowery with full name but they are of the same இரும்பொறை clan.
This is same in any era , kings are mentioned as with given names , royal titles , clan designation .
The same clan , the same region - how could they not be the same because the names don't match with the sane styling however are essentially the names !!
Ko atan - ko vali atan
Perun ko - perun சேரல்
Ilan ko - ilan சேரல்
The literary convention deviates mainly only with suffixes mentioning clan names in full .

[hawk @normierayar]

மத்திகை is indeed horse whip , nacckinarkiniyar says so , what's the significance of such greek borrowing in muttholaayiram ?

[𑌅𑌨𑌿𑌰𑍁𑌦𑍍𑌧 @BmaAnirudh]

Kathryn Hain says that the Mullaipattu, in verses 59-61, refers to "Yavanas armed with horsewhip s" explicitly using the Greek word for "whip". However the actual text doesn't even make mention of whips, only reins. @cobbaltt does the word "மத்திகை" have any connection to Greek ?

[𑌅𑌨𑌿𑌰𑍁𑌦𑍍𑌧 @BmaAnirudh]

@cobbaltt conditions c.480 BC rather than hagiographies of the 3rd-1st century BCE or later (as a silver lining I'm glad that atleast someone believes in Long Chronology lol), accept the dubious legend that Seleucus married his daughter to Chandragupta Maurya, and take for granted even

[𑌅𑌨𑌿𑌰𑍁𑌦𑍍𑌧 @BmaAnirudh]

@cobbaltt If someone looks up the reference in the article ("discussed in Zvelebil, "Tamil" 404) it would be helpful. I assume this is referring to "Tamil Literature" from 1973 (unable to confirm because the article has no bibliography beyond footnotes) but it is neither available online,

[𑌅𑌨𑌿𑌰𑍁𑌦𑍍𑌧 @BmaAnirudh]

Kathryn Hain says that the Mullaipattu, in verses 59-61, refers to "Yavanas armed with horsewhip s" explicitly using the Greek word for "whip". However the actual text doesn't even make mention of whips, only reins. @cobbaltt does the word "மத்திகை" have any connection to Greek ?

[hawk @normierayar]

Nothing makes any content sense ,
Tamil Brahmi records prove the usage of tamil as a literary language proving it's maturity ,hermen teikin does nothing to account for actual archeological finding , it's just empty castle building on thin air .

[Marturi Vasanth @MarturiV]

Why Old Brahmi inscriptions of Tamil lands are not a proof for Sangam literature
This is Arattamalai(pugalur) inscription

1.mutā amaṇaṉ yāṟṟūr ceṅkāyapaṉ uṟaiy
2. kō ātaṉ cel irumpoṟai makaṉ
3. peruṅkaṭuṅkōṉ makaṉ iḷaṅ
4. kaṭuṅkō iḷaṅkō āka aṟutta kal

This is the Brahmi into English lipi
I wrote this reply to my Tamil friend
And explained my logic and reasoning

So what is new here?!
It was there inscribed on the rocks by Jains who brought the Brahmi script to South
Kannada and Tamil region came under Jain influence
Jains were like Christians, they used local language for propagation, so early tamil inscriptions are found but they are not developed like Naneghat or Junagadh or any Sanskrit/ prakrit inscriptions of same time period (I asked you @Thought_Wander, to show one such matching inscription of scale and size in poetic metre in Tamil, you didn’t answer with matching complex sophisticated inscriptions of same time ! Because Tamil at that time had only oral traditions / folklore and Jains brought the script tried to write Tamil and needed few changes for the Tamil phonemes so they changed those letters a little and wrote these inscriptions which gives basic info of the Jain donations for their monasteries !

So why even this rudimentary inscriptions are not found in Andhra Telugu lands?!
Andhra had the highest viharas( Bihar got its name based on Vihars, but Andhra has more Buddhist Vihars than Bihar)
It was the propaganda base for Buddhism, Nagarjuna Konda is the epicentre of Buddhism spread to Southeast Asia and Lanka, please read Buddhism in Andhra

But Buddhism was like Islam( Arabic) Buddhists used their Magadha Prakrit (Pali) thats why the Andhra lands which was heavily influenced by Buddhism did not use Telugu but Prakrit
brahmi to write ! The oral traditions of Telugu people were recorded too but in Prakrit, Hala’s Gaha Sattasai ( it’s ditto Aga naanooru) but written in Prakrit!
It is dated 1st century but it maybe later work as per Tieken (read Kavya of South India by Herman Tieken)

So I firmly believe, the dating of sangam should be 7-9th CE when we get the proper Tamil Inscription with long sentences (Thiruvallarai etc)
Before that it was orally available maybe even thousand years before common era and the Banar kula mendicants carried those songs orally for long time!
few Prakrit- Tamil inscriptions doesn’t prove Sangam was there at that time! It was later composed including this info on the walls and all this were made into Anthology, composed new poems too in archaic style by dedicated expert poets in later Pandya court!

Kannada Tamil and Telugu all have their own lipi Inscriptions within few decades so no big difference
The architectural structures matching Tamil antiquity claim is not yet found!
In fact andhra had sophisticated building structures (ex. Amaravati stupa) which needs much more technology science complex society to execute such structures, so writing poem was not that difficult but they were done in prakrit not in Telugu reason as I said earlier!

So own language own lipi, long inscriptions, continuity in literature matching with other similar background cultures adjacent to Tamil who had regular touch all support, 7-9th century for sangam within a century Bhakti and Kambar..
Or else why there is a 1000 year gap between Sangam and Bhakti, Kambar?
How logical is it to say, Tamils after having sangam in early 200 BC slept and woke up only after 800 CE!

I can list so many such inconsistencies
That’s why I ask you to read Herman and answer him bro

[Thought-wanderer - 𑀧𑁄𑁆𑀷𑁆 𑀆𑀢𑀯𑀷𑁆 @Thought_Wander]

Marturi, the thing you ignore is the point. Hehe

It's not about Inscription, or who made it, it's about the correlation. "cross-referencing primary sources."

This acts as corroborative evidence for sangam dating.

You speaking as if it's exclusive to tamils haha 😂

The names of grand dad, dad and sons name (all chera kos) is mentioned in paditrupathu. That is a clear evidence to your sangam era doubts.

Same rock Inscription with literature mentions happened to pandyas and adhiyamans.

Just like kalingathu parani relates to Kulothunga Inscriptions, and when it's dated to 13th century you don't have an issue. Because it didn't predate telugu.

But you clearly have issues when something in tamil predates telugu.

So changing goal post?

Tamils didn't wake up at 800CE lol

Post sangam continuity:

Manimekalai comes in 4th century
Final anthologies of ettuthogai in 5th century
Karaikaal ammaiyar thirupathigam, mudhal aazhvars works in 6th century
Appar, Samandhar works in 7th century
Aandaal, nammazhvar, sundarar works come in 8th century

[The Best @TheBestqueenx]

❤️❤️❤️

[hawk @normierayar]

@dhf7ehdtdhe8 @Parathavartamil @Mile_stogo @pallavaarayar @BmaAnirudh @VellalarWorld @Dr_mookanuran - All of these guys are much more well versed in social history and provide the rigor you desire, and will be eager to discuss.

[hawk @normierayar]

This erratic dumb chimp was screeching in my mentions, has a weird strong fixation or rather morbid obsession over haplogroups , I paid heed initially out of courtesy , love studying animals ,but after ignoring has gone mad to point of no redemption.

Pray for him .

[djdjciench @dhf7ehdtdhe8]

@normierayar Nah there were posts where you insinuated Haplo L were Velir (can't be bothered to dig all that up).

When I confronted you in DM, you insulted me and ran away like a fucking coward.

Now you have admitted here that you are a wage slave bastard on your own accord.

[hawk @normierayar]

@dhf7ehdtdhe8 Look let me say this in a friendly way,my interest in caste was not borne out of my passion with caste rather with ethnography,history that's all,irl I don't think of it all the time, there are much better individuals with epigraphical, historical knowledge you can interact wit

[hawk @normierayar]

Appar 7th century to Pallava Nandivarman , nothing equals the fierceness of these lines
//We are subjects to none; we fear not Death!
We shall not suffer in Hell; we know no trembling!
We rejoice; we know no illness; we bow to no mortal!
Ours is joy forever, sorrow is no more!

To Him who is subject to none,
Sankara, who wears a white conch shell in one ear,
To that Supreme King alone, we are eternal, willing slaves,
And His fresh, flower-like red feet we have reached//

[hawk @normierayar]

@dhf7ehdtdhe8 @Pahadi_Sg Seri Da lavade bore adikuthu ,nee sootha mudu illana thaniya polambu , right varata !

[hawk @normierayar]

Appar 7th century to Pallava Nandivarman , nothing equals the fierceness of these lines
//We are subjects to none; we fear not Death!
We shall not suffer in Hell; we know no trembling!
We rejoice; we know no illness; we bow to no mortal!
Ours is joy forever, sorrow is no more!

To Him who is subject to none,
Sankara, who wears a white conch shell in one ear,
To that Supreme King alone, we are eternal, willing slaves,
And His fresh, flower-like red feet we have reached//

[hawk @normierayar]

@dhf7ehdtdhe8 @Pahadi_Sg Dei mada punda , I had never claimed to be velir or anything, my caste identity itself plays a very small role in my life ,
If you want to larp as asgardian or super sayin , i don't care. Sootha saathitu odu .

[hawk @normierayar]

@dhf7ehdtdhe8 @Pahadi_Sg Muh AASI ree ! Can you speak five sentence without mentioning AASI

I don't try to pose as anything,it's just that your ass keeps burning with envy , you know nothing, no curiosity, no mannersy, its a pain waste of time to engage with you further. Boring.