MacReady

Catholic living in Japan 🇯🇵🇺🇸🇻🇦

Working for Tavnet

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG If we define God as Ipsum Verum, then there can only be one God.

If we define "god" the way polytheists do, then even with Ipsum Verum there can be multiple gods. But since I define God as being Ipsum Verum, I only define that which is Truth Itself to be God.

Higher standard.

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG Well we can move onto a separate debate topic then since the last one seems to be concluded. I'll now argue that God is Ipsum Verum.

2 questions

1: Are you saying that if God is Ipsum Verum, it is a contradiction if he permits people to lie

2: Where in scripture does God lie

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG Your argument is neither valid nor sound. Claims like “religion is beyond logic” or pure subjectivity undermine objective grounding while failing to answer godly disagreement

I don't know how trustworthy you are as a person, but there's zero trustworthiness in your refutations

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG So my argument is valid but only conditionally sound. Its valid because if the gods disagree they cant jointly ground objective truth non-arbitrarily and if God is ipsem verum and actus purus itself the Euthyphro horns fail as a false dichotomy.

Your argument isn't even valid

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SacredWestOG @SabastianMI Youre correct about Plato because he doesn't even believe the demiurge is the ultimate thing but that he is the ultimate mind. The form of the good is the ultimate being.

Aristotle believed the other unmoved movers have accident dependency on the prime mover who is actus purus

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG It doesn't revert us since it's a different topic entirely. It just shows that the concept of God in classical theism isn't defeated by the dilemma.

How we establish that God is ipsem verum is another separate argument.

Polytheism is defeated by the dilemma either way

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG Nice bro. But yeah, I'm not arguing here that God exists for this discussion. I'm arguing that the dilemma forces the pagan concept of polytheism to admit the gods are not the source of truth, so don't look to them for it

The God of Classical Theism does not have this problem.

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG The reason it CAN logically work for one God, is because it is logical that truth is Ipsum Verum. Or "Truth is Truth itself"

But it is not logical to say many gods can be Ipsum Verum, since they can oppose one another on what is the truth.

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG That's true, saying he is truth itself doesn't establish that on its own. All Im saying is that on the condition that God is Ipsum Verum, there would be no dilemma since neither of the horns would apply

This cannot be said of many gods, so the Euthyphro dilemma applies to them

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SacredWestOG @SabastianMI Depends

I'd say Aristotle was monotheist in a philosophical sense since he thought the gods were only metaphors, but truly believed in an unmoved mover.

Plato thought the demiurge created everything out of pre-existing matter, which would include the lesser gods like Zeus.

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SacredWestOG @SabastianMI I didn't say they were monotheists either. Have you read the dialogue?

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@mariodboemio @HalalNation_ Hey brother, I'm with an organization called the St Nicholas Tavelic network that supports ex-muslim converts who became Catholic.

If you'd be interested in something like that, let me know. I can DM you with more information.

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@TheQuestionInTW @SacredWestOG Noah is my ancestor.

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG Also I don't see how you can read the dialogue Socrates has with Euthyphro and conclude confidently "yeah, this guy's a polytheist".

Plato argues for "a divine demiurge" that created the universe and Aristotle argued for the Prime Mover.

Where do you think they got that idea

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG (2/2)

In polytheism, gods are defined as beings that have superpowers basically. That is not the definition I am using

The very definition of God in Classical Theism is Ipsum Esse Subsistens (Being itself subsisting) and Ipsum Verum (Truth itself)

Not a superpowered 'person'

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG Goodness is a quality God does not control goodness in the same manner that you control a screwdriver in your hand. Its not a property that is manipulated by a wielder

Instead, if God is goodness itself the dilemma doesn't work under Classical Theism. btw how do you define God?

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG I can make a logical argument that does not contradict the laws of logic for why God who is non-composite and actus purus makes the Euthypro dilemma into a false dilemma due to actus purus.

gods who cannot consistently agree amongst themselves about truth can't ground truth.

[MacReady @OliCat12]

@SabastianMI @SacredWestOG Subjective. I'm talking about what's consistent with the laws of logic. If many gods can defeat the dilemma, then you should be able to tell me how.