Ryan Stanley

☦️ Just some guy with a wife and some kids

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

Why This Protestant Pastor Closed His Church to Become Orthodox

https://t.co/KA7VYY1Xr2

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@_captainswish Glory to God. Many years!

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@sarahdactyl123 Sarah, curious what you think of this idea?

https://t.co/yFiwqAknkI

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

Neil, what you have called out very well may be true, and I am very tempted to arrive at this among other similar conclusions. In transparency, I have internally gone back and forth with Gavin. I do get very frustrated with him and his takes. I need to remind myself that my frustration has nothing to do with what his actual motives may or may not be.

I used to run in similar circles as Gavin, and his dad ordained the pastor who ordained me for pastoral ministry when I was a Protestant pastor. So maybe my nostalgia clouds my judgment, but I (unpopularly) believe that Gavin is quite sincere and genuine. The issue isn’t that he is malicious; it is that he actually believes what he says he believes.

To say it another way, at present, it seems to me to be a phronema issue.

This is very similar to culture shock, which you may or may not have experienced. For example, here in the American South, when I am a guest at someone’s house, eating all of my food is a sign of enjoyment or even respect. However, when my wife was doing missionary work in China, she had to learn that eating all of your food was actually disrespectful, because it was a sign that your host wasn’t good because they didn’t give you enough.

You can see how these two cultures are polar opposites in the way they think.

Forgive me Neil, I’m sure you already understand the phronema concept. But the point is, the way the Orthodox thinks and the way that the Protestant thinks are chasmically different; and Gavin simply is not understanding the Orthodox view.

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

There was a baby baptized at my parish this morning, and it was so sweet to be holding my 2-year-old during it, and hearing him say "seal... seal... seal"!

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

Neil, what you have called out very well may be true, and I am very tempted to arrive at this among other similar conclusions. In transparency, I have internally gone back and forth with Gavin. I do get very frustrated with him and his takes. I need to remind myself that my frustration has nothing to do with what his actual motives may or may not be.

I used to run in similar circles as Gavin, and his dad ordained the pastor who ordained me for pastoral ministry when I was a Protestant pastor. So maybe my nostalgia clouds my judgment, but I (unpopularly) believe that Gavin is quite sincere and genuine. The issue isn’t that he is malicious; it is that he actually believes what he says he believes.

To say it another way, at present, it seems to me to be a phronema issue.

This is very similar to culture shock, which you may or may not have experienced. For example, here in the American South, when I am a guest at someone’s house, eating all of my food is a sign of enjoyment or even respect. However, when my wife was doing missionary work in China, she had to learn that eating all of your food was actually disrespectful, because it was a sign that your host wasn’t good because they didn’t give you enough.

You can see how these two cultures are polar opposites in the way they think.

Forgive me Neil, I’m sure you already understand the phronema concept. But the point is, the way the Orthodox thinks and the way that the Protestant thinks are chasmically different; and Gavin simply is not understanding the Orthodox view.

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

I hope @gavinortlund reads this. I genuinely think (and hope) it may help clear up one area of confusion.

Look, one of the biggest errors Ortlund keeps making is this misunderstanding that a lot of Protestants share. When the Church calls a teaching heresy or puts an anathema on it, that does not mean every single person who believes it is automatically going to hell or personally condemned. The anathema targets the false idea itself. It protects the faith and warns people that clinging to it stubbornly can damage their soul. But it has nothing to do with judging random individuals from far away.

Historically, no one person gets formally called a heretic or anathematized without a bishop first trying to correct them over time and giving them a chance to come back. Only after that process does it become personal for that individual. This distinction matters a lot when looking at the old statements Ortlund quotes. Those texts go after the dangerous errors to protect the Church and draw clear lines. They do not hand out blanket condemnations to entire groups of Protestants or Catholics who were born into those traditions. This keeps the truth strong while still leaving plenty of room for God's mercy, our prayers, and real hope for people outside the visible Church.

So is Calvinism officially and dogmatically a heresy in Orthodoxy? Yes, it is. But does that mean every Calvinist is going to hell? No, that is not our position at all.

[Jonathan Pageau @PageauJonathan]

Who can be saved? I had a discussion with Gavin Ortlund about the Orthodox Church's position on salvation outside the church.

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@FrLillie @PageauJonathan Dang, that was so good from Jonathan.

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@C2Antiquity Glory to God! Which book you using, man?

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@JPuncut @Alex_Ortodoxie
JP, you’re continually posting on X that no one can point out how you got destroyed in this debate. I genuinely can’t tell if you’re serious or ragebating, but a lot of your arguments have real problems, and I just have to believe you know it.

The whole argument from silence thing is a glaring issue for you. Your whole case leans on "nobody wrote about it, therefore it wasn't there." But you literally said in the same breath that praying to God also wasn't controversial, and yet the fathers wrote tons about that. So which is it? Either silence means something wasn't practiced, or silence means something wasn't controversial. You can't use it both ways depending on what helps you win the point.

You butchered the Irenaeus quote. ****Alex called this out and you never really recovered. Irenaeus is talking about Gnostics doing magic, binding angels in rituals, the whole Simon Magus type stuff. That's the context. Your response was basically "doesn't matter who he was talking to, the statement stands." That's not how reading works. Context decides what a statement means. Saying "the church prays to God, not angels" in a chapter about Gnostic theurgy is not a universal ban on asking a saint to intercede. Those are completely different things and you know it.

Regarding Origen, you cited him positively in your opening. Then when Alex showed the fuller quote, you called him a thrice heretic. You can't do that. Pick a lane. Also your Jeremiah 15 parallel actually backfires on you. That passage assumes Moses and Samuel can intercede; God's just saying he won't listen in this specific case of national judgment. That's the Orthodox position, not yours.

And your read on the "find a Paul or Peter" line is strained. Origen uses them by name as paradigm cases for supplication. Saying he just means "find someone like them who's still alive" is you importing a conclusion into the text, not reading it out.

I thought your weakest moment was on Hippolytus. Hippolytus uses specific petition language for the three youths, "I entreat you," and you said it's the same as him addressing Nebuchadnezzar rhetorically. It's not. The register is completely different. Alex made that point clearly and you kind of just repeated your assertion louder. The necromancy angle also didn't land because necromancy isn't just "asking someone who died something." That's not the definition and it's not what the text shows Hippolytus doing.

You rejected the Talmud when it helped Alex, then quoted it when it helped you. That's special pleading. Also the passage you cited, the "cry out to me directly, not to Michael or Gabriel" one, doesn't actually say what you think it says. Orthodox theology also says don't substitute saints for God. Saints intercede to God. That passage isn't the smoking gun you treated it as.

Sub Tuum Praesidium is a third century liturgical prayer used in Christian worship. You basically said it doesn't count because it's not a church father writing a treatise. But that's a totally Protestant way of thinking about how doctrine gets transmitted. The old formula is "how you pray is how you believe." If Christians across Egypt were praying to the Theotokos in the 200s, that's not nothing. Dismissing it because it's not a signed letter from a bishop is just moving the goalposts.

I mean, your whole framework, explicit apostolic command plus explicit patristic endorsement, that's a post-Reformation standard. You're applying it to a pre-Nicene church that didn't work that way. By that same logic, homoousios fails too. The word isn't in the Apostolic Fathers either.

I’m really not trying to be mean or rude to you. But you seem smart, and I genuinely don’t understand how you can’t see this for yourself. I hope that you do, and that you come home to the Holy Orthodox Church.

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@Alex_Ortodoxie @ModernDayDebate This one should be a LITTLE closer to level playing field; at least Farag has published a book. But from what I can tell, still will be JV against varsity.

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

I offer, with humility, my essay on "The Work of the Holy Spirit Inside and Outside the Orthodox Church."

"This is also a key reason why someone within the Orthodox Church should look at holiness outside of the Church not with contempt or even suspicion, but with gladness and humility—because where there is genuine love for Christ and moral sincerity, there also is the Holy Spirit, and glory is due to God."

Click to read more.

https://t.co/LQuB05hDtA

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@Alex_Ortodoxie I hear police are looking for you. Heard the charge was murder.

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@dirtpoorrobins @Alex_Ortodoxie @JayDyer basically, a pretty solid assessment

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@Truth_matters20 the only time alone appears after faith in the scriptures is when it says salvation is not by faith alone

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@NoeticSpring You asked this question a couple of weeks ago

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

It is a common temptation in the West to reduce the Gospel to a simple checklist of beliefs, treating it like a multiple-choice test for entry into heaven.

However, the ancient faith teaches us that salvation is the active, challenging process of becoming one with Christ. Truly believing the Gospel means your life becomes a reflection of it.

This is an ongoing transformation into the likeness of Christ, rather than just passively agreeing to a set of ideas in your mind.

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@PriestKristoph too vague to be helpful

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@servantseeker1 @PriestKristoph That's what he should do.

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@sarge____ We are still playing 2k5 to this day

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@needGod_net Anytime Prots lump in Orthodox and Catholics it demonstrates that they don't understand what they're talking about

[Ryan Stanley @ryanalanstanley]

@patristicpill what an ecumenist