True Indology

Indian literature, Archaeology, History,Linguistics,Theology. Admirer and follower of Dr. B.R Ambedkar. I revere the feet of Sant Ravidas and Sant Chokhamela.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

January 10,2025

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

@realculpritisme It is not unrealistic. GC runs this country. If all GCs unite, they can get it done.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

The entire SC/ST creamy layer argument rests on a flawed assumption: that a substantial section of SC/ST population is affluent enough to have cornered reservation benefits at the expense of genuinely deserving candidates.

The Bihar Caste Census puts a number to this assumption. Only 1.72% of SCs and 2.53% of STs earn above 50,000 per month. That is the upper bound of what anyone could reasonably call a creamy layer, and I am already stretching the definition generously, since the existing OBC creamy layer threshold of 8 lakh per annum translates to roughly 67K per month, well above 50K.

So the creamy layer within SC/ST, by the most liberal reading of available data, is approximately 2% of their population. This largely follows from Bihar census but caste data from Telangana is also similar.

Now consider what actually follows from that number. If the argument is to exclude all Paswans from reservation because 2% among them have done well, that is precisely the logic used against GCs: denying benefits to an entire group because a section of it is affluent. SC/ST communities will recognise this immediately and they will not accept it.

If the narrower plan is to exclude only the creamy layer individuals rather than the whole caste, you have reduced the reserved pool by 2%. The remaining 98% is still eligible, still reserved, and the replacement queue behind them is deep and immediate. Not one additional seat opens for GC candidates. And at 2% turnover per generation, you are mathematically waiting 50 generations before reservation has run its course through the population. That is not reform. That is a rabbit hole with no exit.

This is why my position is straightforward. Abolish all reservations, including EWS reservation, which is constitutionally dubious on its own terms. Replace it with direct economic assistance to those who genuinely need it, regardless of caste. Target poverty, not identity. That is the only argument that is intellectually honest

[Kumar saurav @Mr_S4Viour]

A strong argument, but there are a few issues.

OBC creamy layer in its current form is a farce. It does not include salary and agricultural income, neither does it include assets like EWS. I have talked about improving this criterion in the original post.

So if you are not seeing the effect in terms of reduced reservations, that’s why! Therefore, I support the demand for a white paper so that we can actually get the data on who is actually overrepresented among the category itself.

I agree that the creamy layer by itself is not a mechanism for reducing the reservation quota. However, my argument is that the creamy layer, if implemented correctly, can contribute to the eventual reform of the reservation system.

Now, about the whole government jobs point, it’s not about who to exclude. It’s about identifying a subset of beneficiaries whose socioeconomic circumstances have improved significantly. In that case, the preference should be given to those with fewer advantages.

The whole point is to first implement better targeting, then demonstrate that actual disadvantaged beneficiaries can be reached without a blanket caste-based system.

Then we can perhaps one day talk about making economics the sole criterion.

This is merely the first step! We all want an ideal India where there is no discrimination based on birth. But we have to be politically realistic and do it one step at a time.

[Voice Of Brahmins @VoiceOfBrahmins]

Trending at number.3🔥

#सवर्ण_आयोग_बनाओ

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

Muslims pay less than 1% of taxes in Tamil Nadu.

Tamilnadu gets all its wealth from Hindu taxpayers and Hindu temples.

They use this money to fund WAQF board and Muslims.

Why are Hindu women excluded? This is open apartheid.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

@seansachinjoon @AtriNeeraj Yes it is good. I don't disagree. But it is not even touching the actual issue. Which is injustice for GCs.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

The second-order effect argument sounds compelling in theory but falls apart against one simple question: we already have OBC creamy layer. Has it reduced reservations by a single percentage point? Has it generated any political momentum toward abolition? The answer is no. Creamy layer did not reduce OBC reservation. It just shuffled who gets it. That is the entire historical record we have, and it argues against your position, not for it.

Now to the arithmetic, because that is where this argument actually dies.

Take Chamars in UP. Their population is roughly 12%. Even if you accept the most generous assumption that successive generations of the same families have been cornering government jobs through reservation, you are talking about 5% of Indians being in government employment at any point. Apply that to Chamars and you get 0.6% of the population that could plausibly be called beneficiaries. Exclude every single one of them. The remaining Chamar population eligible for reservation is still 11.4%. You have not moved the needle. Ten poor Chamars are standing behind every rich one. No government is going to cut reservation on the argument that some members of a caste have become affluent while the vast majority remain poor.

Take Meenas, who are the loudest example used in this debate. Their pan-Indian population is roughly 0.5% of the total. Exclude every Meena from ST reservation tomorrow. Will the government reduce ST reservation from 7.5% to 7%? Of course not. That is not how this works and everyone knows it.

The best case scenario for creamy layer, assuming honest implementation, honest income certificates, and a tight threshold, which are all enormous assumptions given what we have seen with OBC creamy layer, is this: Dudhlal who retired from a bank job with a crore in pension benefits cannot pass reservation to his son. Instead Mangat Ram, who drives an auto or works as farm labour, gets it for his son. That is a genuine internal equity improvement within SC/ST communities. It is a worthy goal on its own terms. But it does not open one additional seat for General Category. It does not reduce reservation by one percent. It does not build political momentum toward abolition because the reserved population as a whole loses nothing.

Reform as a gateway to further reform only works if the first reform actually shrinks the pie. Creamy layer does not shrink the pie. It redistributes slices within the same communities. The political coalition that defends reservation remains exactly as large and exactly as motivated after creamy layer as before it.

[Kumar saurav @Mr_S4Viour]

The advantage comes from the excluded sections now being treated as General Category!

If SC/ST creamy layer is introduced and OBC-NCL criteria are fixed, a lot more people will suddenly find themselves in GC.

This in turn will lead to more support for reducing reservation!

Any reform in reservation will open it up for further reform, which currently is treated as practically “untouchable”.

Do not undermine the reform movement and underestimate its 2nd-order effect.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

If your demand is reducing both number and quota, then obviously don't call it creamy layer. What you are demanding is abolition of reservation itself or reduction of percentage. That is not creamy layer and yes if this is your demand I am with you. But vaguely framing the demand as 'creamy layer' without specifying the demand for reduction will not only confuse others, but also dilute your own stand and lead you into pointless endeavors.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

In 1835:

British recorded 41 lakh students in traditional Indian education systems. These students studied Science, Maths, art, Sanskrit and Urdu.

52% of the students were from communities that are identified as OBC today.

Only 16% were Brahmins.

STOP peddling the myth of 100% Brahmin reservation. That never happened.

[Sudipta @SudiptaKumarNa8]

For 3,000 years, only Brahmins had the right to education. There was 100% reservation here. A 10% community occupied 100% of the seats for 3,000 years. Now that reservation has been given for 70 years, you are getting upset.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

I am still a Hindu Nationalist.

I know more about Hinduism in its manifest aspects than the entire pro reservation brigade put together.

Asking for equal rights is not separatism.

You can call us separatists the day GCs ask for a separate nation.

[Chutti Bala Gajan @hub_nationalist]

Once a true Hindutva Nationalist,
sad to see he has degraded from that to this

​Well, before anyone barks at me, let me clarify:
Yes! He can criticize reservation and he made some good points

​But the way he puts it is very cunning
This is exactly how separatists inject poison

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

@arunshukla A low hanging fruit is reducing reservations. Fighting battles of others ( like congress fought for Khilafat) in which you have 0 net advantage is misdirection and not any low hanging fruit.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

I agree. From a GC perspective, fighting for the implementation of creamy layer within SC/ST reservations is largely pointless.

Yes, certain communities within SC/ST have exploited reservation to their advantage. But what does introducing creamy layer actually achieve? It would push out the more affluent SC/ST communities, but those seats would simply be filled by less represented communities within the same bracket. With a population of over 35 crore, a large section of which is poor and underrepresented, SC/ST communities will have adequate replacements for at least the next hundred years. The math is simple: not a single additional seat opens up for GC candidates. The numbers stay exactly the same.

Then there is the question of implementation. Creamy layer already exists for OBCs, and it is farcical. The threshold is 8 lakh per annum from non-salary and non-agricultural sources only. This means a Staff Engineer at Google earning 2 crore annually does not fall under creamy layer, because his non-salaried income is below 8 lakh. The policy has been deliberately structured so that nearly everyone is exempt. And this is before accounting for the income certificates, which are largely fraudulent documents anyway.

Finally, this is simply not our fight. Anyone who believes championing creamy layer will generate goodwill is mistaken. It will be seen as interference in their internal affairs, nothing more. VP Singh, himself a General Category politician, was instrumental in implementing the Mandal Commission and OBC reservations. When his government was collapsing, he expected OBC MPs to cross party lines and save him. He declared they would vote from conscience. They did not. His government fell. Generations of GC reformers poured genuine effort into their empowerment. The returns speak for themselves.

Save that energy. The real fight is for the complete removal of reservations. Reservations are inherently unjust, explicitly discriminatory, and anti-merit by design. That alone is justification enough.

[Ceteris Paribus @entropied2223]

Good response by Center. No need for this creamy layer nautanki.

Some moronic/masochist/ gaddar GCs are busy telling you that this creamy layer good for GCs. It's not.

Reserve seats won't decrease. Demand for pvt reservation will not go away even SC/ST if creamy layer comes into play. You've all seen what a joke OBC creamy layer is.

For GCs only things worth struggling and fighting for are:
1. All reservations are removed (ultimate goal)
2. Till the time 1 happens don't let reservation limit go beyond current levels
3. Do not let this cancer enter pvt sector jobs

Anything that does not lead to any of the above is not worth wasting your breathe on.

Let PDAs decide how they want to treat their poor. It's none of our business honestly. The very people you want to win more rights for will not even show the courtesy to say thanks. So, stick to fighting your own fucking battles.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

You underestimate the power of caste. Pitting poor Dalits against rich Dalits is much harder than pitting poor GCs against rich GCs. GCs, whether rich or poor, supported EWS reservations. If rich GCs had opposed it, it would never have been implemented. Poor Dalits are not jealous of Mayawati. Rather, they admire her and aspire to be like her. Finally, this very concept of dividing people is bad faith and bound to backfire.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

Everything I said above is also applicable to sub-categorization of reserved communities.

[Neeraj Atri @AtriNeeraj]

Absolutely valid points.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

Yes exactly.Ultimately we must do two things at once. 1. Fight for complete removal of reservations 2. Address the atrocity literature. If we implement creamy layer and sub-categorization within those communities without addressing atrocity literature, what we would end up producing is more empowered anti brahmanical communities who will continue to hate us regardless.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

Picture source: These are 15th century Timurid Mughal paintings from Mirajnameh. (BnF Suppl. turc 190, Herat c. 1436).

Can be retrieved from here: https://t.co/oi9SZk17MP

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

This is an old Muslim painting. It depicts Prophet Muhammad visiting hell during Miraj (night journey).

In hell, most inhabitants were women. There was a section of "shameless women" who did not cover their hair.

For this crime of inciting lust in men, women were hanged by their hair and burnt for eternity in hell.

Yes, I totally agree. The greatest feminist of all time.

PS: Do you cover your hair?

[Arfa Khanum Sherwani @khanumarfa]

Prophet Muhammad, the greatest feminist of his time, who emancipated women.
Inheritance, consent, divorce
1400 years ago, he challenged the patriarchal order of his time.

Ya Nabi Salam Alaika
Ya Rasool Salam Alaika
Ya Habib Salam Alaika
#EidMiladunNabiﷺ

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

And here are women hanged up by hooks through their breasts.

Their sin: showing face.

[True Indology @TrueIndology]

@KanuS_28 Still cannot believe it.

[Adivaraha @vajrayudha11]

That’s not casteism. That’s classist mentality. Infact by keeping the suffix of “Dr” and surname “Ray”, instead of just identifying as Ayesha you carry both classist and casteist mentality!

[Rajiv Malhotra @RajivMessage]

I would like to help @trueindology and my team join hands to fight rampant plagiarism by so called influencers. This is disgusting and against dharma principles. Discourages meritocracy