LightOnFire

"The map is not the territory" - Alfred Korzybski

Kangaroo Mexican
Austere Religious Scholar
✝️🐻🦞🐸🍺😏🐕👨‍⚕️🐙

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@Mormonger Because Joseph Smith is in no way a trustworthy dude, and we have no need for his Christian-ese agglomerations to our religion.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@britterm @NathanBozeman2 That is a good question. There is also the idea that paying a debt and forgiving a debt are mutually exclusive. Scripture shows God can freely forgive and nobody needs to be punished, and that is not subverting His justice. E.g. 1 John 1:9

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@NathanBozeman2 @_ObjectiveTruth Hilasterion came into English as propitiatorium. The terion and torium suffixes are a good clue that this word is talking about a place where something happens, (I like the translation of mercy seat "the place where mercy is found"), not an expiation.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@RFupdates Because God doesn't need to punish someone to satisfy His justice - He can just forgive.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@NathanBozeman2 I take Jn. 13:10-11 to mean we can never be eternally separated from God once washed clean, but we can be temporarily separated from Him in this life by sin. Then 1 Cor. 3:15 suggests those in that state are saved but escape as thru the flames, their ungodly works burned up.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@BillArnoldTeach When did sin become a physical thing? Sin taints your spirit, not your body. Jesus came into the world, which is wholly a litter box of sin. Why did He not cleanse the whole world prior to the incarnation?

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@slicktyger1 @DPGBehler And those that are chosen are those who respond to the invitation.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@travis_fooks @TheMuppetPastor @IndianaBrunner Jesus paid a price to forgive sins and restore relationship with people. But He did not "pay the debt" of sins. You cannot pay a debt if you forgive it.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@sola_chad My sins are forgiven. Forgiving and paying a debt are mutually exclusive.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@farmingandJesus Got it only so I could be at the birth of our child. Regretted it before I even got it. Always suspected it is the reason we haven't been able to have any more kids.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@Dang83616 @darwintojesus Or, as Alfred Korzybski put it: "The map [model] is not the territory [reality]."
Words themselves are imprecise maps of an underlying meaning one is attempting to convey.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@CountTwoOne @Aelthemplaer On the day of atonement, the sins of Israel were symbolically placed on the second goat (the scapegoat) and it was sent into the wilderness, to Azazel, which some believe is the name of the one who bears the title "Satan".

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@ConceptualJames Jordan Peterson teaches that all identities are relational. Is he woke too?

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@ThomasWiEdwards @DPGBehler To clarify, I believe we are separated / in rebellion against God and unable to save ourselves, but we are not unable to freely accept His offer of salvation.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@ThomasWiEdwards @DPGBehler Dead means separated or apart or exiled from God, the giver of life. As per the repeated cycle in the Bible, it requires a miraculous intervention to be restored to communion with God, you can't do it on your own.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@BennettBernard7 @danlaynd @IndianaBrunner I thought it was obvious, but I was saying that capital G Grace specifically refers to God's greatest gift/grace, that being the gift of salvation through Christ.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@BennettBernard7 @danlaynd @IndianaBrunner Then we are back to the start - if we are saved by grace then what is grace beyond a nice sounding platitude? How is it a means to anything?

To me, the word grace is just a synonym for gift (from God). So Grace is the specific gift of salvation from God.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@danlaynd @BennettBernard7 @IndianaBrunner Nobody has more salvation than another, so the "full" loses all meaning in that understanding.
I am still partial to the idea of Mary being physically full of Jesus Christ, the gift (grace) of salvation to the world.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@danlaynd @BennettBernard7 @IndianaBrunner When considering the official definition we are probably closer than I first thought, the lay understanding is another matter.
Being full of grace could just mean "having received many blessings and gifts from God" but then I don't see the link from that to grace as salvation.

[LightOnFire @Uriardiente]

@BennettBernard7 @danlaynd @IndianaBrunner Would you say that grace is any gift of God, whereas Grace is specifically the gift of salvation (being the gift of Jesus Christ)?