Joseph Albrigo

Catholic. I think the convertibility of the Transcendentals is both very cool and eminently true.

[Ethan Muse @emuse1955]

The EARLIEST ACCOUNT that the Smith family gave of Joseph Smith’s discovery of the golden plates (i.e, the source text for the Book of Mormon) involved a treasure guardian rather than an angel or a prophetic calling. There are overt indications within the account that this treasure guardian was evil. The religious content of later accounts can be shown to be anachronistic.

If the source text for the book was *from a demon according to Smith himself* that settles the debate. And yet my opponent did not engage with the extensive, multiply attested, highly credible, directly and indirectly corroborated testimony that establishes it. His best source was decades later than my sources, written by Smith’s own mother, and was *demonstrably edited to whitewash admissions about Smith family involvement in folk magic.* Even Smith’s own story bears all the marks of a money-digging yarn and none of biblical election to prophethood.

Rather than saying *debunked* while ignoring all my evidence, do any Mormons want to deal with the MASSIVE PROBLEM presented by these historical facts?

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@seanproxy @IgorIsBack @emuse1955 @ThoughtfulSaint Do you want me to make the argument that JS publicly and privately lying about his polygamy is evil? Bc the OT never says such behavior is ok

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@BradWitbeck @BenBird53920553 @ThoughtfulSaint @LukeFHan Ethan actually gave arguments as to why the sworn testimony of William Stafgord is reliable. I'm skeptical of both, the difference is thay Ethan has given some substantive historical reasoning as to why we should trust the testimony

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@seanproxy @IgorIsBack @emuse1955 @ThoughtfulSaint Oh, you're just denying that we can know good from evil? Thats...not what I was hoping for lol

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@Broxecutor @ThoughtfulSaint @emuse1955 They believe in one God, that's something lol

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@seanproxy @Chi_Rho_Goomba @IgorIsBack @emuse1955 @ThoughtfulSaint No, you'd need to explain either why the various evils claimed either don't matter or didn't happen. Either one would work as a response to his probabilistic argument

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@seanproxy @IgorIsBack @emuse1955 @ThoughtfulSaint What evidently ecil acts did Jesus do? Did Jesus have 30+ wives? Did Jesus engage in demonic sacrifices? Did JS perform countless vindicatory miracles? Etc

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@BradWitbeck @BenBird53920553 @ThoughtfulSaint @LukeFHan John Stafford says explictly that no such sacrifice happened? That wasn't my understanding of the evidence to the contrary

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@seanproxy @IgorIsBack @emuse1955 @ThoughtfulSaint Your response to point 3 makes me wonder if you even watched this short clip. Explain how his standards change from Jesus to JS

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@seanproxy @Chi_Rho_Goomba @IgorIsBack @emuse1955 @ThoughtfulSaint He already discussed them earlier in the debate, right?

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@seanproxy @IgorIsBack @emuse1955 @ThoughtfulSaint 1) Ethan ties it directly to his authorship argument. Not a gish gallop if

2) How is he vague? He claims to directly summarize LDzs authorities

3) How so? Ethan explains the principles by which he judges and doesn't change them for Bible vs BOM

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@Chi_Rho_Goomba @seanproxy @IgorIsBack @emuse1955 @ThoughtfulSaint Also, I don't see why this counts as a gish gallop. As long as Ethan ties these claims to the resolution as an essential part of his argument, it seems totally fair game

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@ThoughtfulSaint I've yet to see a reason as to why this rendered Ethan's arguments less effective. The only claims Im seeing seem to basically be saying that the optics are bad, not actually explaining how this disproves Ethan's case

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@seanproxy @IgorIsBack @emuse1955 @ThoughtfulSaint 1) These points had already been brought up throughout the debate tho, right? Luke had already had opportunities to respond, right?

2) I'm still not sure what your critique it here? Are you looking for a source fir his claims?

3) And Ethan responds, showing why it's not ad hoc

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@BradWitbeck @BenBird53920553 @ThoughtfulSaint @LukeFHan If you think this various accusations lack historical support, can you provide evidence for that?

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@BradWitbeck @BenBird53920553 @ThoughtfulSaint @LukeFHan I don't see how talking about the evil that permeated the whole of JS's life entail cherry picking.

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@seanproxy @IgorIsBack @emuse1955 @ThoughtfulSaint 1) How is it a gish gallop in this section? Presumably Luke had already had many chances to respond to these points earlier in the debate.

2) Flesh this out. I don't see this at all in the short clip shared

3) How so? Imo Ethan makes a reasoned distinction, not special pleading

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@seanproxy @IgorIsBack @emuse1955 @ThoughtfulSaint Setting aside the whole debate and just focusing on this particular section, why do you think this particular exchange was an embarrassment for ethan?

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@ThoughtfulSaint @emuse1955 So your response to my counter point is to deny that Islam has good fruits?

[Joseph Albrigo @JosephAlbrigo]

@ThoughtfulSaint @emuse1955 It preaches plenty of good morals. Beyond that tho, I don't think Mormonism actually bears any good fruits of a supernatural kind, in fact, I'd say it bears many bad fruits, as evidenced by the life of the very man who founded it.