@rtf_media Libertarians spend a lot of time talking about fiat money creation, central banking, and financialization of the economy which are the primary causes if this phenomenon.
Hi Joel. Would love to discuss this with you further sometime if you’d like. You and I have had good discussion in private before, which I greatly appreciated.
First, I don’t know who this JD fellow is, so I’m completely ignoring him and whatever issues you guys may have to work out.
I’ll state my overall conclusion, and then unpack it below: some of your claims about the Church Fathers are false, and actually ignore more disturbing points on which they were unanimous.
Having studied this topic fairly thoroughly (I’m finishing writing a book on aspects of it now), I can tell you the Fathers were in fact unanimous on two topics related to the Jews near the end times:
1. They will receive Antichrist as a False Messiah (many say they will actively assist him in persecuting the Church).
2. They will convert to the Catholic Faith at the end when they receive Christ as their True Messiah.
These have been traditional Catholic belief for millennia. “Christian Zionism” is not required.
If anything, with the impending acceptance of Antichrist—who, to have a plausible claim of being “Messiah,” would, in the Jewish view, very likely be involved with or supportive of an earthly “national restoration”—a robust but loving caution would be a prudent minimum.
The issue stems less from this post, and more a previous one in which you wrote the following about the Church Fathers: “the belief that God would fulfill his promises to Israel and restore them as a nation and a people of God once the ‘fullness of the Gentiles was brought in’ was widespread among the early Church Fathers.” You then listed most of the names you quoted below.
Before getting to those quotes, there is an issue with your statement: you said “restore them as a nation and a people of God.”
The first part, national restoration, was NOT widespread among the Fathers; indeed, it’s very rare, and mostly speculation by some (such as St. Bede, for example, who you don’t cite).
Given your views, it is reasonable to think by “national restoration” you mean something like the State of Israel, since in the same post you ascribe the “re-emerging” of “Christian Zionism” as a “re-emerging” of beliefs from the Church Fathers after a supposed 1,000 years of the “state church hiding it [the Bible] from them” (a myth to address another time). None of the quotes you provided speak to a “national restoration” in the Christian Zionist sense. More on that below.
The second part, that they will be restored as “a people of God” is more true, but I think it’s more accurate to say the Church Fathers believed they would be restored TO the people of God, which they all believed was the Catholic Church in which Jew and Gentile exist on equal terms through Jesus the Messiah.
Let’s now proceed to the quotes you provided below. Sourcing wasn’t provided, but I’ll assume they are accurate for the time being:
—Tertullian + Origen: yes, standard expectation the Jews will convert to Christ (note: neither of them are Church Fathers, though they are important ancient witnesses).
—St. Jerome + St. Augustine + St. Prosper + Cassiodorus: again, standard expectation of Jewish conversion (note: Cassiodorus is also not a Church Father, but an important ancient witness).
—St. Cyril of Alexandria: the first and third quotes are, again, very standard stuff about Jewish conversion at the end. The second quote, which perhaps you think applies to the State of Israel or some other latter days “national restoration,” is actually from his Commentary on Obadiah 1:20-21, and is talking about the Jews returning to Judah from Babylon. You can find this in the “Fathers of the Church” set published by the Catholic University of America, Vol. 116, pg. 144.
So the one quote that comes closest to your actual point doesn’t make your point. St. Cyril affirms the traditional teaching on the Jews and Antichrist elsewhere (see his Commentary on John, Book 3, Ch. 2, 5:43).
Happy to discuss further if you like.
God bless.
@DavidBCollum I think this is the AI version of this photo.
The original is very grainy, but not as grainy as the super 4k video of the alleged "shooter" on the roof though.