100%. If the government can't find the will & means to build capacity and redundancy and ensure stability of the grid, outsource it to industry. On-site generation keeps you up when the grid dips, and a well designed site can push power back when the region is tight. That's a grid asset, not a grid burden.
PJM just told the data center industry the "free ride" on the grid is over.....
The largest grid operator in the country filed a rule with federal regulators last week: new large-load customers either bring their own power, or they go first in line to get curtailed when the grid is strained. Pay for new capacity directly or through backstop purchases, or plan on running your diesel fleet on the hottest and coldest days of the year. Fun!
Everyone keeps treating the interconnection queue like a waiting list. It is not a waiting list anymore, It's actually been priced.
This was inevitable. When one customer class drives most of the load growth, the rest of the rate base refuses to fund the buildout for it.
If your site plan assumes the utility shows up with power on your schedule, your site plan is wrong. The developers who win the next five years need to have generation, storage, and a credible curtailment story. That last will be an interesting trick, since most facilities do NOT assume a protracted fallback power solution.
https://t.co/UvqI6LLDmx
Coachella permanently bans data centers, kills a $54M/YEAR project....?
https://t.co/OAljANr8Gr
They just voted to permanently ban data centers. The first project they killed would have paid an estimated $54 million a year into public revenue, including the schools and the water district. They banned it anyway.
Coachella is the second California city to do this, and moratoriums are stacking up across the desert and across the country. The industry response so far has been to show up with economic impact studies and closed loop cooling diagrams. It is not working, and it was never going to, because the actual opposition is not about water tables or noise. Talk to the people in these rooms and it comes down to fear of AI, anxiety about jobs, and a pace of change nobody asked them about. The technical rebuttals are all true and they all miss the point. You cannot fact-check your way past "a feeling".
It's not the luddites who are creating this FUD, it's the industry "self-owning" and folks at the top like @DarioAmodei with inane comments about job losses. (albeit toned down lately - the cat is out of the bag).
So maybe the solution is for the AI/data center industry to just shut up and let the market forces make the argument for them. It won't take too many IBEW unions screaming about job losses NOW as a result of moratoriums vs. "maybe job losses later" to get the point across.
@chamath and also falls squarely into the 'all publicity is good publicity' on balance. Especially for folks making their living podcasting or in media :-)
84 fires? No. 84 emergency-service calls at two Ohio sites, (inspections and construction incidents included). If the case needs that kind of rounding, it's weaker than it sounds.
Lithium-ion thermal runaway is well-modeled: NFPA 75, NFPA 855, UL 9540A propagation testing, and an entire energy-systems chapter in the 2024 IFC. Jargon for: the industry knows, this risk is understood and the mitigation well defined. In this case, the manufacturer redesigned the system, and the retest held the fire to one module. Exactly as it should have happened.
Of COURSE fire risk exists in a data center. As it does in any industrial setting. And as any other project the consideration is whether design, siting, and local response capacity match the hazard. If the AHJ can't review the design or respond to an event, don't permit it yet.
Calling every service call a fire doesn't make anyone safer, and it certainly doesn't help the 'kill the data center' argument. In this case, it exposes the 'grasping at straws to support the desired conclusion' approach. There are plenty of reasons to be responsible in data center project approvals, you don't need to manufacture FUD to do so, and in the long game, you undermine your own case.
Be intellectually honest, please. It's not the water (debunked). it's not the power (debunked). it's not the fire, it's not the noise, it's not the jobs. The most clear-eyed case for 'kill the data center' is simple:
I'm scared about what I don't understand (AI in general)
I'm worried about anything that might threaten my job, whether or not it's real (AI)
It's moving really fast, and I have a vague indescribable unease about that
NIMBY for ANY industrial projects.
All emotionally valid, none of which will withstand technical or functional scrutiny. Admit that and you'll have a lot more credibility @AIRiskNetwork
https://t.co/X4RXtpMMS5
@noahrshinn So far so good - booked hotel, airfare, car rental. If all it ever does is completely automate the mechanics of coordinating travel - it's worth a subscription - to me, anyway!
@v_arustamov Totally not true re: water use BTW. That number is a generation behind the tech. New builds are closed loop and moving to liquid cooling, so they fill once and recirculate, not drink a town dry every day. Just like the radiator in your car...
@RationalBlonde It’s a proxy for “I don’t understand any of this or how it works, someone told me I might possibly lose my job, and anything that I can scapegoat for my insecurity sounds good. Plus, I get to ‘stick it to the man’”…..
The point MISSED is that the economic value, the tax incentives are substantial - the total GDP contribution by AI/Data Center is SIGNIFICANT to the overall economy. The choice is between data centers/AI or NOTHING - exactly as @RationalBlonde says. It's not like there are other industries that are beating down doors and competing for the opportunity to develop and bring jobs. Where the hell was all the outrage when the paper mill broke ground? the feed lot? the quarry? And are THEY competing for the land & permits to build NOW? Didn't think so.... Bad news is, Dollar General uses data centers too. Looks like you're down to just those 3 vape shops......
Golf courses do not move the needle at all on GDP growth or contribution or employment by comparison. AI/Data Centers are between 2-5% of GDP, and 33% of the GROWTH of GDP in '26. Jobs related to AI & Data Centers are between 800K and 5M (depending on how far into the industry you attribute) vs. 323K in golf courses. But yeah, the water.....
@BernieSanders Giving Trump credit for their increased wealth makes about as much sense as giving credit to the bed they sleep on, no insult intended to the mattress.
I can only speak for myself: I live how I choose to live, and it's not dependent on the presence or absence of AI, Data Centers, or any particular government position or policy. I agree that the data center issue is a proxy for people's distrust of AI and general fear of the unknown, as it has always been. But if you believe that 'how you live' is somehow related at all to that, I submit you have freely given away your own agency, and scapegoating an industry is a poor cop-out.
you're right, they haven't. The new hyperscale one are close to zero environmental impact, closed loop cooling, behind the meter power, much more revenue/ft./kw - meaning much more tax revenue per data center. So explain to me the objection again other than standard FUD and bandwagon-jumping, vote chasing (based on misinformation). I guess it depends on how you see your higher purpose: to simply vote along what your constituents want, regardless of the merits or intelligence of the sentiment - OR help educate, motivate and guide your state & citizenry towards a better outcome? I guess based on your comments, that answer is clear.
Yep, they are gonna be built by anyone who is available, anywhere to build them. Especially when certain states decide they want to shoot themselves in their own feet re: moratoriums, the opportunity will flow elsewhere, and the economic value will accrue to those willing, able to meet the demand. Supply/demand at work, as it should be.
Congrats. you just shot your own economic development in the foot. I'm assuming you are doing this in lieu of accepting the all of the 'better' industrial project opportunities that are beating down your door - that have no environmental impact, create jobs, and create massive tax revenue. Let us know how that works out for you. What you have clearly signaled to anyone in any industry considering a move there is that you are following the herd mentality and any proposed investment should be considered VERY risky. Good on you for exercising your right to NIMBY. Industry in general will go elsewhere, and you will look like downtown Detroit in short order.
@Birdie18th@MikeNellis Honestly not the dunk they think it is. Modern data centers run closed loop and liquid cooling, so the water fear is already a generation behind the tech. The Olive Garden is still boiling a fresh vat of pasta water all day.
That makes absolutely no sense. Conflating a fraudulent loan industry with the AI buildout is nonsensical. a "goal of TBTF" is not a goal. Jeven's law is proving the model works. Sure, open weight models will right-size the revenue GROWTH. That's how a competitive market works. It doesn't mean the revenue goes down, or that the usage goes down, or that the industry is just getting built for the sake of TBTF. What horseshit.