Stephen Kell @[email protected]

"Academic" "computer" "scientist" but really none of those things. I program, think, write, talk, teach... rarely in that order. Mostly I make software slower.

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@jonathoda @ilyasergey @chrisshank23 @__protected @icfp_conference @splashcon @pvh @qualmist @geoffreylitt I think from Onward!'s point of view, the main issue is that we are not on the same days as OOPSLA which we normally would be. Whether we need sessions over two or three days is a level of detail down (and programme-dependent). Let's talk about both of these by e-mail (I'll send)

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@JAldrichPL @cellllla @davidthewid I agree with the general point, but it's slippery, e.g. I see not just ethical but political issues in compilers. Huge power gap between user and compiler author; the latter form a bloc (read: big tech) skewing tools/languages to suit certain projects/parties; "whose efficiency?"

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@TitzerBL @samth @matt_dz I agree that moving in C++ is problematic because it is so error-prone. It is best seen as an optimisation for rare/careful/expert use.

But for copy constructors and copy assignment, isn't the copying explicit? I don't see it as behind-the-back.

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@matt_dz @TitzerBL @samth I so do not understand this discussion... which is my problem. But if you feel like helping me out: when we talk about C++ in this context, what are the C++ features/idioms that are being critiqued? Isn't copying pretty explicit in C++?

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@mauricioaniche @JAldrichPL I mostly agree that it's possible to do both. "Aren't willing" might mean "have unreasonably high other workload pressures". (Not always!)

Also the "teach foundations" aspect is (here in the UK) under constant attack by "teach vocational skills". So people naturally dig in....

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@JAldrichPL @terrible_archer It is increasingly possible to get a CS degree without an OS course. :-(

I teach a (short, compulsory) OS course and it just about touches on environment vars. Students find the raw volume of "stuff" very challenging, and the practical work is what they complain loudest about...

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@laurencetratt @abhi9u @lemire (The first one is really an executable specification of linking, but the work never quite got that far... it was more successful as an arguably comprehensible linker written in an ML-like language.)

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@laurencetratt @abhi9u @lemire I co-wrote a paper about a "very simple" (relative) linker
https://t.co/ZjeiFCLn2b
and a blog post about a very simple dynamic linker (loader) that omits much of the important stuff (but is still fun). https://t.co/NzDZblGur3

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@filpizlo @stbrunthaler @laurencetratt @RanjitJhala OK, but now imagine that the change the hacker wants to commit is 's/gcc/hcc/' in the Makefile, where 'hcc' is the one that does the checks. Make only succeeds when 'make check' tests pass. Surely this sets the bar equally high? "Converting files" isn't the framing.

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@filpizlo @stbrunthaler @laurencetratt @RanjitJhala Maybe! I suppose I don't follow why you think anyone would "declare victory" after only turning on checking for one file in 1000. What's the rationale?

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@stbrunthaler @filpizlo @laurencetratt @RanjitJhala Interesting q about how much checking would a checking-aware programmer actually check... Rust people grapple with this in a different way. It's partly cultural. But if you *can* turn it on for ~all C code, you'd have to justify *not* doing that. Work needed ofc.

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@stbrunthaler @filpizlo @laurencetratt @RanjitJhala Checked C should really be called "C unioned with another language specified to require checking". Not necessarily a bad approach but you can also implement plain old C with checking... that is mine.

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@laurencetratt @filpizlo @stbrunthaler @RanjitJhala Thanks for the plug. :-) Though no need for the past tense! I am only a few yak-shaves away from being right back on this....
(And "fewer changes than CHERI" is definitely a goal.)

[Jonathan Edwards @jonathoda]

To: the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the ones who see things differently

Subject: you should write an Onward! paper

https://t.co/xjeIeE8C83

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@PrincetonUPress Please can you stop spamming me? You're spamming my address firstname.lastname at https://t.co/M9hi8uwhbp. I refuse to "unsubscribe" when I never subscribed... I've already contacted you by e-mail but you ignored it. Reputable companies don't spam people.

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@Zephraph @geoffreylitt @Unison I totally applaud the emphasis on systems not just languages per se... and agree it is a pity that many takes (especially academic ones) are blind to this.

But going further: what's a reasonable "radius of co-design"? How can we program with tools drawn from beyond that radius?

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@AstroBio_Ben It's a great list... though I've found it impossible to stick to these sorts of practices with even a moderate departmental workload (teaching, admin, whatever). E.g. the problem is that eventually (not just in Soviet Russia) meetings schedule you.

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

I'm going 'on tour' soon... among others, going to be in the Bay Area on Tuesday 7th and Wednesday 8th November. Happy to chat with anyone who's around! Also will have some time in New Zealand and Australia the fortnight after that...

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@mgrnbrg Congrats!

(BTW I will be around the generalised New York area on 30th October if a flying visit / coffee might appeal... just let me know.)

[Stephen Kell @[email protected] @stephenrkell]

@rsnous Might I ask the source?

One thing printf gets right is: people prefer typing fewer character. Who wants to write "setw(2) << setfill('0') << " when you can write "%02"? Don't answer that. Of course I think it only works well for notations that are fairly commonly used.