@ronhenzel Didn’t Calvin believe in evanescent grace? That’s how he would explain why non-elect people can sometimes appear saved, even to themselves. Wouldn’t they say they believed in Jesus?
@ApoloJedi_ What you call “choose”I would call “surrender”. Salvation comes only through Christ. He did the work. He made the offer, but I must surrender to Him realizing I can’t save myself.
@JustinPetersMin@DineshDSouza Are you implying that if he really understood Calvinism that he would be a Calvinist? That seems to be the unspoken part of “you just don’t understand Calvinism”. If we understood we would believe. That’s the implication, correct?
When you’re a Calvinist and make up only 3% of Christendom and you call everyone who doesn’t agree with divine determinism a Pelagian, then yes, it would seem that Pelagianism is rampant.
Something I notice in the Calvinist arguments: it all boils down to this. To an outsider, Calvinists don’t believe in free will and make God the author or evil.
A Calvinist will note the Westminster Confession says they believe in free will and that God is not the author of evil.
This is true; the Confession states this clearly.
The argument against it is this: ok, you say you believe this, but all your logic points against this.
For example, free will isn’t free if God ordains all that comes to pass anyway. Nobody means this when they say “free will”; they mean the ability to make our own decision without compulsion. If God decided what I would do, then I am not choosing.
And logically God must be the author of evil if He has ordained all that came to pass because most of that is evil.
A Calvinist would disagree.
I assume that a Calvinist simply has faith that even though it looks like God is the author of evil, He isn’t. And even though it looks like men don’t have free will, they still do. I hope this assumption is correct; it’s the only way this makes sense to me. I am trying to be fair to what the Westminster Confession says.
So essentially a Calvinist has faith in Calvinism/Westminster Confession, or rather, the scriptures they interpret the same way as Calvin and reformers did, and therefore has faith even if some points may seem paradoxical to outsiders.
If my assumption is correct, we could save ourselves a lot of trouble by saying : Calvinists have faith in their interpretation of the Bible and this mystery of God. Non Calvinists do not and interpret the Bible differently, and have faith in that.
I think we err greatly into the sin of pride by saying “my interpretation IS the gospel” because that means all others are lost, and we run the risk of seeming gnostic.
The Bible isn’t some deep mystery meant only for elites to unlock with a special code. It’s for everyone, and the message of faith is simple enough that children understand.
“Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.””
Mark 10:15 ESV
I always try to keep this verse in mind. We don’t reach Jesus thanks to complex theology. We enter the kingdom of heaven like a toddler looking for Abba. Indeed, we shall not enter any other way.
@deadtosin610@CoryAlbright4 To my knowledge, there isn’t a specific verse that states all babies go to heaven. It is however consistent to assume as much considering Gods mercy and character and Jesus’ attitude towards children. But again, I’m not the one needing to defend the inconsistency.
@deadtosin610@CoryAlbright4 I actually agree with Calvin’s position because God is merciful. But I’m not the one that has to defend the logical inconsistency. The logically consistent Calvinist would say that some infants do go to hell, but only a few will actually say it.
@deadtosin610@CoryAlbright4 I did read. And calvinists are very dogmatic about their interpretation of election. Therefore you need to be able to defend the inconsistency that says God elects some to salvation and some to damnation before the foundation of the world but somehow ALL infants are elect.
@deadtosin610@CoryAlbright4 If there are elect infants at what point do some become reprobate? At some point some of those infants would lose their salvation, would they not? I didn’t think that was possible under Calvinism.
Dead men don't do anything but in scripture dead people do lots of things. Why? Because dead is metaphorical, not literal. But Calvinists NEED it to be corpse like unable to respond. Why? So their eisegesis can work.
Let the reader COMPREHEND.
@Pastor_Gabe@sethpye "But to say to an unbeliever “God loves you” means to the unconverted that God approves of them."
No it doesn't. Loving someone doesn't = approval of actions or lifestyle.