Telestial Takes

The LDS Restored Church of Jesus Christ has profound doctrine. Willful ignorance is the worst kind, because you can’t convince the stubborn. 1 Corinthians 14:38

[Telestial Takes @telestialtakes]

Since Cameron continues to double down, here are the actual facts Ethan blurred together for everyone’s reference on why Ethan did a sloppy job at his debate and was using unsubstantiated hostile content that’s been contested by even critical historians:

- The dog story comes from Emily M. Austin’s 1882 reminiscence, roughly 56 years after the alleged event, not even remotely contemporaneous or reliable. What’s worse for Ethan’s case, it is also not direct eyewitness testimony of Joseph doing it. She says she was shown locations and told a dog had been killed.

- The sheep story comes through the Hurlbut/Howe hostile affidavit project behind Mormonism Unvailed. Hurlbut had been excommunicated, was legally restrained over threats against Joseph, and was hired by anti Mormons to collect damaging testimony. So indeed Hurlbut was paid for putting out. Even worse than all this, the Stafford sheep story is contradicted by later family recollections, including John Stafford saying he did not believe the black sheep story was true.

- “Animal sacrifice to a demon” is not what the evidence establishes. At most, these are disputed claims about folk treasure digging rituals involving charms, guardian spirits, or evil spirits in early American folk-magic culture. Turning that into “Joseph sacrificed to demons” is polemical inflation Ethan engages in for rhetorical punch that would be 100x worse turned back on popes, particularly if we were allowing ourselves to use unsubstantiated history like Ethan did in an official debate setting.

- “During the time he was receiving revelation” is also doing a ton of dishonest work. Some alleged treasure seeking activity is placed around 1820s, before the plates and before the Book of Mormon translation. That is not the same thing as Joseph sacrificing animals while dictating revelation in the slightest. I noticed your sly “allegedly” there Cameron. You know what you were doing.

So no, Ethan did not establish that Joseph Smith “sacrificed animals to demons while receiving divine revelation.” He took highly unsubstantiated, weak, late, hostile, and disputed sources, then put the most maximally sensational wording on top of them, and then treated his caricature as fact.

[Telestial Takes @telestialtakes]

@Systemsurg63 @realDrTT Absolutely I have. My faith is based on revelation and reason, not simple good feelings. I actively read Catholic material and consume faithful Catholic content as well! It’s a good thing to explore information. You should try it rather than condemn it.

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@Systemsurg63 @realDrTT Yes, because the answer to truth is to obscure information and not explore it.

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@Other_Sheep_ @Thatbrian Definitely reads as an engagement farm mixed with some mental need to get some rage out of his life somehow.

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@Piecemaker2121 Seems about right.

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Notice how she gave no intellectual argument, and cowardly blocks me after I gave her the exegetically accepted view from scholarship. These types of accounts are the bottom of the barrel and not worth your time. Btw, she is still wrong, even if she tried to get the last rhetorical word.

[Telestial Takes @telestialtakes]

@Other_Sheep_ @Thatbrian @grok Btw everyone, Brian blocked this account after he got smacked down. Absolute sophistry your engaged in Brian.

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@waldenpod Well, presupposing you have to agree said Church engaged in that is true, which you all obviously have to do… it’s a good thing — nay a necessary thing. This take is very rationale.

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Dorothy, Deuteronomy 18 is about discerning true prophecy from presumptuous prophecy in the context of an already true prophet. Jeremiah gave a “false prophecy” if you hold that verse as a standard to determine a prophet. The rest of this is just caricature. Also, and I can’t believe I have to point this out, Access to internet ≠ ability to research effectively.

[Telestial Takes @telestialtakes]

You’ve identified the crux correctly.

No, I don’t misunderstand Ethan. I’m pointing out his inconsistency. What you just did (and what Ethan’s argument does) is smuggle in the presupposition that the Catholic Church is the true Church.

Of course, if Catholicism is already granted as true, then the LDS restoration claim would be false. But that does not prove it is demonic. It only proves it conflicts with Catholic truth claims.

That’s why the argument becomes much weaker from you and Ethan. It stops being a neutral discernment standard and becomes, “Assume Catholicism, therefore Mormonism is demonic.”

My point is that Ethan appeals to Matthew 12 defensively with Fatima, but then loosens the standard with the Book of Mormon by saying demons can preach Christ, repentance, prayer, obedience, grace, and reliance on the atonement disingenuously. Yet it has improved the lives of millions that would all testify to that.

From an LDS perspective, it is far more reasonable to say God can work through people with incomplete theology than to say a book that repeatedly brings people to repentance, prayer, Christ, moral reform, and covenant discipleship is “clearly demonic” simply because it does not route them through Rome.

[Telestial Takes @telestialtakes]

Ethan, defending Fatima against demonic claims appealed to Matthew 12, where Jesus says:
“If Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?”

Ethan during Book of Mormon debate:

Luke: “Do demons preach that only Christ can save?”
Ethan: “Again, same answer as before. It’s the principle is they can say anything disingenuously.”

Apparently, so can you, Ethan. (He has me blocked so I cannot tag him for him to see)

[Telestial Takes @telestialtakes]

@realDrTT @just_keep_read You’re good, I assumed that to be the case! We appreciate you brother.

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@realDrTT @just_keep_read Appreciate it, but “don’t agree with it at all” is probably a bit of an overstatement. There is much overlap.

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These passages establish triune patterns, Christ’s deity, the Spirit’s divine status, distinction between Father, Son, Spirit, and monotheistic worship. LDS doctrine affirms all of those things. What doesn’t exist here is a verse that teaches consubstantiality, which was formulated in councils 380+ years post Christ.

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@gaptoothdummy Natalie, to establish the trinity from the Bible, you will need a verse teaching consubstantiality. That verse doesn’t exist. Trevor isn’t “not understanding”, he’s just likely actually read the scholarship, the original languages from the texts, and/or studied it.

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The Book of Mormon has more to defend it than just Matthew 12. Ethan’s main defense of Fatima was not only Matthew 12. It was a layered defense. You are correct. However, my point in this post is that Ethan is inconsistent in argument and special pleading on that appeal, not that the Book of Mormon is defended and that I’m borrowing Ethan’s argument. The Book of Mormon’s defense is also layered, and Luke made a more layered defense than what you are implying as well as even more can be added that he didn’t mention in the debate.

[Telestial Takes @telestialtakes]

I agree. Lots of people’s arguments usually boil down to it necessarily needing to be demonic because it would drive people away from their presupposed accepted faith body, not because of its content. But, obviously, this only holds true if they presuppose their faith is the correct one. We are a bit more unique than most in that we accept other faiths can be of God in many aspects without an admission that they have to be the true appointed church of Christ.

[Telestial Takes @telestialtakes]

Matthew 12:26
“And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?”

One of the earliest recorded miracles in the restored Church was Joseph Smith casting a devil out of Newel Knight, witnessed by the Knight family and neighbors.

[Telestial Takes @telestialtakes]

I’m not claiming anything other than that Ethan is using an inconsistent standard. I’ve made that quite clear.

But you’re also reducing the Book of Mormon to “a demon saying Christ will save you” which is not remotely precise or the point. The Book of Mormon does far more than state an isolated true sentence. It repeatedly calls people to repent, pray, come unto Christ, trust in His grace, reject sin, keep God’s commandments, and build their entire hope on Christ’s atonement. So you would have to actually argue that Satan would call people to repentance, keep commandments, and strive to rely on Christs grace. Then after the book says that, millions of people take those charges seriously and it betters their lives. To say it’s demonic is patently absurd.

I’m not misunderstanding his position on Fatima. You’re misunderstanding my point, which has been about his inconsistent criterion the whole time. I’ve watched his Fatima debates in full, studied Fatima myself after that, and have studied his arguments from his Substack writings.

[Telestial Takes @telestialtakes]

Ask Ethan. His Matthew 12 appeal was used in defense of Fatima, which was not an exorcism event either. So the “is saying something the same as casting out a demon?” objection you’re making is against Ethan’s own use of the passage, not mine. My objection is to his inconsistent logic.

Also, awkward point as an honorable mention here: one of the earliest recorded miracles in the restored Church was Joseph casting a devil out of Newel Knight, witnessed by the Knight family and neighbors.

[Telestial Takes @telestialtakes]

@sq9wjg @CapturingChrist What a caricature that was.